Agree Or No?

[Discount_Blade]

I've been reminded of an event that happened on RR for me about a year ago concerning paywalls and reader interaction. I was considering joining a specific writer's patreon and had even decided I would join their 20$ pledge which at the time was their second highest of 4 tiers. There was a question or something I kept asking over various chapters, can't remember what it was now but it was concerning the story, but I later noticed the author never responded to anyone on RR and I wasn't the only one constantly asking questions. Never. He never responded to anyone. I went through various chapters and not once was he ever present in his own comment section. Then I noticed that he was always responding on Patreon. Thats fine. Now, sure that is your choice and your right. You want someone to pay for the privilige of engagement with you? Sure. Thats a little shitty to me, but sure .

My problem of course, came when I mentioned that avoiding speaking to people in RR and only bothering to respond in Patreon, could be discouraging to newfound readers joining your patreon. I said it was wrong to put reader engagement behind a paywall, since readers like that were what made him in the first place. I didn't realize the amount of shit I was going to cause with that statement. Needless to say, some of his more zealous fans immediately unloaded on me saying I was should be grateful he even posts for free. (Wut? if he didn't post for free somewhere, what use would his patreon be then?). I countered that him even posting for free at all is what has lead, and will continue to lead to him gaining new patreons so I said their logic is faulty. Especially since if he stops posting on RR or for free, than are the patreons really getting any exclusivity anymore since now once again, everyone is on the same playing field? So I mentioned that as well, and it just spiralled even further out of control. I was trying to stir up trouble against the author apparently. I was a troll. I was various other things and names. I was spoiled. I was whining that I wasn't getting the same rights as patreons, but for free. (Again wut? I had literally mentioned my intent to join his patreon at the beginning of my post!!!) There is more to it than that but anyways.....

I don't remember all of it anymore, but it ended up with 3, (maybe 4) people banned, one of them permanently since it wasn't his/her first time causing a scene over something. I was warned and told by one of the mods that it was best if I refrained from socializing in that particular comment section anymore.

Needless to say, my original point had been that avoiding interaction with the free readers, and ONLY engaging with your patreons, while not wrong technically, is still a dick move. It can and did in my case, stop me from joining his patreon and I'm sure I cant have been the only one who has felt the same. Funny thing is, the author did later pm me when he discovered the conflict. However, he didn't address my concerns or even mention anything I said or was said at all, all he said was to "please refrain from trolling my comment section".

Funny that. You mean the one you don't interact with in the first place? Why should it concern you if you aren't social there in the first place? And troll? I don't see how I was a troll. I simply said not interacting with his readers on RR could discourage future potential patreons, and it turned into me being spoiled and entitled, wanting something for free, and being a troll. Needless to say, I didn't join hos patreon, and he suddenly went on hiatus later on and hasn't returned in the time since. His patreons, numbering a little over 2,000, have now dropped to less than 10.


So, does anyone agree with the original stance that patreon's should attempt to maintain some sort of interaction with their free readers on RR or SH or wherever?

 

[binarysoap]

Is it beneficial for an author to reply on comments to the free readers? Probably.
Do they NEED to? No.
Are they even obligated to? No.

Now for your comment on RR, without actually reading exactly what you typed in the context, I have no idea if it could come off as troll, since while you didn't intend to, it might not come off like that to others. Your points are valid though.

 

[Discount_Blade]

Is it beneficial for an author to reply on comments to the free readers? Probably.
Do they NEED to? No.
Are they even obligated to? No.

Now for your comment on RR, without actually reading exactly what you typed in the context, I have no idea if it could come off as troll, since while you didn't intend to, it might not come off like that to others. Your points are valid though.

The mods wiped the whole conversation so I couldn't help you there. And yes I mentioned said author didn't need to, but it was wrong not to. And I did get explicit in my arguments with people, but ONLY after my concerns were dismissed and i was insulted for even sharing them. and also, people misuse the word troll constantly nowadays. Now, ANY dissenting opinion you don't agree with can be labeled trolling, which is NOT how to use that word.

 

[Ace_Arriande]

From a business perspective, they absolutely should maintain interaction with readers on all platforms that they're posting on. Readers like to see that interaction. It's pretty much strictly a beneficial thing to actively participate in your own comment sections.

From a personal perspective, I don't. I used to, but it got to be too time consuming and was often more stress than I needed given that most people who have positive things to say are usually just posting "thanks" or emojis (which give me nothing to reply to) while the people with negative things to say are the ones typing up multiple paragraphs worth of complaints while demanding that you reply to every single point they have.

I basically never reply to SH or RR comments. I still read them sometimes, but I almost never reply. I am, however, aware of every Patreon comment within ~5 minutes of them being posted unless I'm asleep, and I always reply to them if I have something to actually say. I also reply to all comments on my personal website which is available to free readers. And I'm active in my Discord server with over 1,100 of my readers, both free readers and patrons, and I talk to them and reply to what they say every single day, including voice chatting with them 99% of the days out of the year. I think, out of the last two and a half years, there are probably... less than 20 days in total that I didn't voice chat with them and probably only one or two days where I didn't talk via text with them.

To me, I don't paywall author interaction. I just consolidate it into a select few places to save time and for my own mental health.

So, what do you think of that? If an author tells their readers that they'll reply to everything elsewhere, such as on their personal website or Discord server or whatever, does that make up for not replying to comments on RR/SH?

 

[Sabruness]

Agree. Free readers are the base from which to get patrons so wilfully ignoring them is very odd in my opinion. In my experience of reading EN webnovels, there's always a small percentage who seem to be in it almost solely for the money and act that way.

One novel i used to read on RR went that way. the author started out interacting a lot with readers and making regular releases until he went on a sudden months long hiatus. When they returned, it was all about the money and publishing despite promising a regular free release schedule. didnt take them long to break it as releases quickly dried up (ending up at 1 super short chapter every 2-3 months) and eventually the readership left because the story quality had nosedived, releases were very few and far between and it was clear the author was only interested in making money from their story.

 

[Discount_Blade]

From a business perspective, they absolutely should maintain interaction with readers on all platforms that they're posting on. Readers like to see that interaction. It's pretty much strictly a beneficial thing to actively participate in your own comment sections.

From a personal perspective, I don't. I used to, but it got to be too time consuming and was often more stress than I needed given that most people who have positive things to say are usually just posting "thanks" or emojis (which give me nothing to reply to) while the people with negative things to say are the ones typing up multiple paragraphs worth of complaints while demanding that you reply to every single point they have.

I basically never reply to SH or RR comments. I still read them sometimes, but I almost never reply. I am, however, aware of every Patreon comment within ~5 minutes of them being posted unless I'm asleep, and I always reply to them if I have something to actually say. I also reply to all comments on my personal website which is available to free readers. And I'm active in my Discord server with over 1,100 of my readers, both free readers and patrons, and I talk to them and reply to what they say every single day, including voice chatting with them 99% of the days out of the year. I think, out of the last two and a half years, there are probably... less than 20 days in total that I didn't voice chat with them and probably only one or two days where I didn't talk via text with them.

To me, I don't paywall author interaction. I just consolidate it into a select few places to save time and for my own mental health.

So, what do you think of that? If an author tells their readers that they'll reply to everything elsewhere, such as on their personal website or Discord server or whatever, does that make up for not replying to comments on RR/SH?

He didn't have a discord. If he had, that would have made my whole complaint null and void and I wouldn't have even brought it up in the first place. Discord is a beautiful thing when it comes to reader interaction. He didn't have one. He ONLY responded to his patreon subscribers.

 

[Discount_Blade]

Agree. Free readers are the base from which to get patrons so wilfully ignoring them is very odd in my opinion. In my experience of reading EN webnovels, there's always a small percentage who seem to be in it almost solely for the money and act that way.

One novel i used to read on RR went that way. the author started out interacting a lot with readers and making regular releases until he went on a sudden months long hiatus. When they returned, it was all about the money and publishing despite promising a regular free release schedule. didnt take them long to break it as releases quickly dried up (ending up at 1 super short chapter every 2-3 months) and eventually the readership left because the story quality had nosedived, releases were very few and far between and it was clear the author was only interested in making money from their story.

See this was different. He posted two chapters every week if I'm correct, though I can't remember the length, I would say between 2-3k words on average. A little less than I like but I enjoyed the story and wanted to support it nonetheless.

 

[Ace_Arriande]

He didn't have a discord, which would have ade my whole complain null and void and I wouldn't have even brought it up in the first place. Discord is a beautiful thing when it comes to reader interaction. He didn't have one. He ONLY responded to his patreon subscribers.

I don't think somebody should stick only to paid interaction. I've seen plenty of successful author patreons where they say stuff like "you can ask me questions on discord if you pay this much" or "I'll voice chat with you and answer questions for 30 minutes once a month if you pledge to this tier," and that sort of thing always rubs me the wrong way and just makes me think of them as an self-entitled ass who I would never want to support. But, I still don't think they're obligated or anything to reply to readers on free platforms. I can absolutely understand why they wouldn't want to for a variety of reasons, though.

If somebody just so happens to only reply to Patreon comments because they're busy or for any other reason, I don't have a problem with that. I only have a problem with it when they make talking to them into some sort of privilege advertised in their tiers, and that's just because I think it makes them look like an asshole.

 

[Daitengu]

Most people just don't have the time to comment everywhere. It's pretty unlikely for web novel writers to not work a full-time job.

Then there's the fact that patreon based writers are ahead for paid, and any commentary in free sites are so behind as to be pointless as the author isn't going to fix a plothole ten to thirty chapters later.

 

[PandaSempai]

Dang. So there are authors like that? I mean, I never encountered those problems since I've been reading only fanfics and LNs for the past 3 or so years. Yes, there are some self entitled bastards who writes fanfics just to make a quick buck but they were never successful on doing that. I think there would be some problems that would arise if you make money out of your fanfic, anyway.

Even if it's under Creative Commons, I think you should also be giving a portion of your revenue to the original author? Idk, it's complicated and I don't want to deal with it.

As for the main topic at hand, I think it is not great to put some kind of price just so that readers can interact with you. That thought is just rubbing me the wrong way. I mean, yeah, some authors might have some problems like not being able to interact that much since they're not used to it or something(they have their own life so it's understandable). However, if you don't interact with your free readers at all and do what was mentioned above, it just makes you look like a self entitled prick who is in for it all for the money. It's gonna make you a decent amount of money at first but it isn't a good practice in the long run. People are getting smarter these days and those kinds of tricks won't work to most of them anymore. ?

 

[DubstheDuke]

I mean, yeah. I agree that it's a dick move.
Of course, it's his choice- but I would never even consider doing that to the people who actually enjoy my novel. The fact of the matter is, if you're one of my readers and enjoy my work, I owe you for giving me and my work the time of day. I believe that interacting with your readers when they have questions or even when they just want to talk is a given as an author of a webnovel, because isn't that the whole purpose of a webnovel? It's a series where the author is available to speak with the readers and discuss stuff- not this high figure that is unapproachable.
Why wouldn't anyone want to interact with their fans? That baffles me.

 

[Moonpearl]

Some writers really do think that they're a god for doing something a five year old can do.
Sometimes it's a phase folk go through when developing as a writer. Sometimes that just becomes who they are.

You're right about reader engagement, though, although whether it's morally wrong or just dumb as an author is another matter.

 

[Nyaa]

What the author does is up to him/her. Authors have no obligation to engage with readers in the comments. The readers will still read it - with or without author engagement.
It does, however, leave a more favorable impression with the readers when authors do participate in the comment section. It helps convey their passion for their work - and more passionate authors write better stories. Also, you gain empathy by personally engaging with people - making it easier to win their support.
A more favorable impression as a result of author engagement may lead to more support on patreon.

Patreon itself is another issue. Think of it like a business: the business owner has to fulfill the expectations of their customers if they want to get paid. An author who doesn't like engaging with their readers may still do it to appease paying customers, but even from a purely business perspective, it makes sense to put effort into customer acquisition as well as customer retention - engaging with prospective customers as well as existing customers. People don't typically support businesses that ignore them until the money is taken.

Some might argue that exclusive author engagement is what they're selling, but that is misguided.
People join patreon for (1) more content and/or (2) to support someone they like. Selling the right to have comments replied to does not fall into either of these. The product is the right to read chapter early - the more you have the more lucrative the deal.
Author engagement is as a marketing tool that is lost when trying to make it part of the product.
Not using the comments section to try win the support of more readers is a wasted business opportunity. Some authors try to do both by offering additional engagement (e.g. Discord) as a bonus to paying customers, without crippling their main marketing apparatus.

So yes, whether you're passionate about your story, or only care about money - it still makes more sense to participate in the comments either way.
If you are someone who really hates interacting with other people - then you'll limit interaction to just customer retention.
But if that were the case, you could just make the 'product' only include advance chapters and noting else and ignore those people too, without loss, since you never set that expectation.

---
For me personally, I don't really care whether the author participates in the comments. I'll read stories I like and skip those I dislike regardless of the author engagement. As a first priority, I want authors to write what they desire to write without caving to our demands as readers. If they can respond to comments without being negatively influenced by us, then doing so is an opportunity to win some more favorability.

As for convincing me to join your Patreon - lots of advance chapters are the best way. (e.g. 20 chapters + no perks > 2 chapters + perks.)
How much I like you may also factor into my decision. Writing thoughtful responses to comments is an opportunity to make me like you more.

If you respond to comments only on patreon and ignore everyone else (as in this example), I'll probably think you're an asshole with no passion for his work as an author and refrain from supporting you.

Also, a few authors I follow do not even have a patreon. I really respect authors who write for passion and not money. I'd certainly be more eager to support them by buying a book of the completed story if they choose to publish it afterward - even more so if I can get a DRM-free digital edition.
---

I agree with OP.

 

[ForestDweller]

About Discord though, what's the point of having it when readers can just leave comments on the story itself? I'd rather have a long discussion on the story that's open to the public, signifying the popularity of the story, instead of having it on Discord where it's a private thing.

 

[Nyaa]

About Discord though, what's the point of having it when readers can just leave comments on the story itself? I'd rather have a long discussion on the story that's open to the public, signifying the popularity of the story, instead of having it on Discord where it's a private thing.

I thing the whole appeal is the instant messaging aspect.
A public discussion certainly does more for promoting the story, but interacting with fans in real-time - sometimes on unrelated topics - may feel like a nice bonus to some.

Though, as far as I'm concerned, it adds no value to a Patreon package. I only care about quality content and the author's passion for creating it. I'll join a discord server if it seems fun, but I won't open my wallet for it.

 

[ForestDweller]

sometimes on unrelated topics

I feel it would be sad on the author if the Discord ends up just getting used more to discuss stuff not related to the story.

 

[Nyaa]

I feel it would be sad on the author if the Discord ends up just getting used more to discuss stuff not related to the story.

Well, like any other Discord server, they tend to have on-topic and off-topic channels. Gives people more stuff to stick around for.
The balance will ultimately depend on how admin configures the server and how active they are.

I usually just log in to lurk for progress updates when chapters are late, but there are others who spend a great deal of time reposting memes.

 

[yansusustories]

I do agree. Personally, I don't answer every comment since I just don't have anything to say to some of them (and some I do actually miss and only see, like, days or weeks later and then I feel it's embarrassing to reply ) but if there are actual questions, I tend to take the time to give an answer. Sometimes, other readers are faster than me though which is kind of nice
My Patreon is a small one though so I guess it's not that time-consuming anyway. What I do like about it is that I know exactly who is who though and thus feel much more familiar with them, especially when they're somebody who comments often. That's something I often don't have with the free readers because they're not as consistent with commenting and don't share as much of themselves.

 

[ForestDweller]

I do agree. Personally, I don't answer every comment since I just don't have anything to say to some of them (and some I do actually miss and only see, like, days or weeks later and then I feel it's embarrassing to reply ) but if there are actual questions, I tend to take the time to give an answer. Sometimes, other readers are faster than me though which is kind of nice
My Patreon is a small one though so I guess it's not that time-consuming anyway. What I do like about it is that I know exactly who is who though and thus feel much more familiar with them, especially when they're somebody who comments often. That's something I often don't have with the free readers because they're not as consistent with commenting and don't share as much of themselves.

You don't necessarily need to be a paying reader to be a frequent commenter. My story is completely free yet I have a bunch of people that always comment every chapter.

 

[yansusustories]

You don't necessarily need to be a paying reader to be a frequent commenter. My story is completely free yet I have a bunch of people that always comment every chapter.

Lucky for you then. I don't, unfortunately
Which is honestly just what I meant: One of my patrons is very, very consistent with reading my stuff (basically, she reads everything) and even if she doesn't comment on each and every chapter, she definitely comments on most which just makes me very familiar with her.
With free readers, I have some that read a series or two but seldom everything and even those come and go. Like, they'll be there, binge-read the beginning (since I'm pretty far into most things or have things completely finished), then comment for several chapters or even arcs very consistently before dropping off. I don't know if they continue to read but at least they stop commenting some time down the road. (And I very rarely have anyone commenting on the most recent chapters. If they comment, it's mostly the bingers on old chapters.)
I've had that happen with every single free reader so far even those who seemed incredibly involved in the beginning. It's not anything I fault them for, honestly. They might just not like the series anymore, don't have the time (like, some come back after a while and comment again for a while) to either read or comment, don't have anything to say, their tastes changed ... whatever reason there is. That's okay. They can totally do that and I won't stop responding to the comments they do leave because of that. I'm happy about every single one of those comments. But - and that's all I wanted to say - I'm not as familiar with them because of that. I think that's legitimate.
Again: I'm not saying free readers can't be consistent readers or commenters, it's just that my personal experience is that they don't stick around for my stories. That might be on me though. Maybe it's just not as good anymore as it was when I started out or it just didn't fulfill the expectations they had.