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I see heaven as a place people go too altogether at the end of time once sin is destroyed.
I also don’t trust spice, lol I just think it’s an interesting plot device haha.

But to the original point, the existence of a Messiah doesn’t require bloodshed. It’s the desire of men to use the existence of a messiah and their greed which causes it.

Greed is also a huge theme in Dune.

@Anon2024 I think this has been a very interesting conversation and I appreciate your explanation of your views! It’s crazy how many different interpretations of things there are. I just wanted to mention how nice this was because I appreciate peaceful talks about religion

To the bloodshed part, I usually see it as necessitated by the evil in man, which will not stop until it sinks its claws into goodness to try to rip it apart. Goodness needs to be torn but not broken to prove it’s immortality as an unconquerable force carried on through those struggling to fulfill its conditions, rather than an unconquerable force granted strength through “might makes right”

I believe that evil is necessary to highlight good, as otherwise there is only the great neutrality of the universe. Both evil and good are measurements of life, but death is measured by God. As such, evil is no longer a necessity

Haha, the whole topic of violence and whether it is reasonable is a deep and winding conversation.

As to evil being necessary; I wouldn’t say it is “necessary” but a required experience to completely nullify its effectiveness. Your body doesn’t become immune to certain diseases until it has experienced it.

I believe that peace, success through non-resistance, to be an important aspect of the divine that is not often grasped by humans. A human who chooses to not to draw a sword in the face of death will die, will bleed, but proves a belief in something greater than life that empowers others to overcome their struggles

If there was never a disease, nothing would have ever been necessary and you’d never have gotten sick in the first place.

I see the existence of evil as the drawback of allowing free will, and its elimination will be from those with free will being able to look at the history of this Earth and saying “never again.”

See I don’t believe peace through non-violent resistance will always work, I sometimes think it will be stupid.

It was only in the last 2 centuries that it became a thing, if you did non violent resistance against the mongols you’d have been slaughtered lol.

@Anon2024 ooooo that’s a really interesting take. Do you believe that the allowance of free will to be a burden too great for the non-divine?

And that was seen a lot in religious context of the Old Testament when the Israelites had to destroy evil civilizations before they became a nation. The modern sensibilities we have are largely due to Christian influence.

No, I don’t believe any burden is too great for the divine, but the reality of free will is simply the freedom to choose.

Without knowing evil or sin, one would choose blindly, hence why Adam and Eve ate the fruit. When sin is known, no one who is sinless would choose it.

@Anon2024 I don’t believe in only non-violent resistance, but I do believe that leaders in a Holy position should be mindful of the power of such tactics (such as utilized by Ghandi)

I got it.

yeah, non-violence only works to a certain extent. The rule of our current world is supposedly based on reason, but there was a time it was based on power.

If you break it down, in religion God has the power to rule completely, but He doesn’t because He wants to rule by reason.

however, there are unreasonable people who can’t be given reason.

Thus, hell and destruction.

I definitely understand the importance of not standing still and being slaughtered, of fighting back in cases such as WW2.

Now, I have to be honest, the Old Testament has always scared me.

Some killings I saw as mercy killings, some as punishment.

I appreciate the judgement based on reasoning as well as the greater empathy of the New Testament.

Most Christian’s only focus on the New Testament because they don’t understand the Old. Even more of them find revelations scarier.

I used to be afraid of the Old Testament too, but since I understand Gods character better than I did in the past, it doesn’t scare me at all now:

I’m still working on my faith and figuring out where I stand, especially understanding how modern sensibilities have impacted the interpretations of the messages. I have the luxury of being scared of the violence that paved the way for my more peaceful life only due to the bloodshed of others.