Writing Diverse Casts

[Schwab]

I think nowadays people are obsessed with making their characters visually (and whatever you'd call sexual preferences in this context) different. I remember a lady on some news network complaining about the lack of black toys in Toy Story 4 because her 'kids couldn't see themselves as one of the toys'. Personally, I think it's very limiting to not being able to empathize with somebody because they don't look like you. Awful, actually. We've seen the results of people not caring about the plights of others because of physical differences. But that's a conversation for another time.

I don't read much on this site and I've never seen this problem on RR but I for one am a firm believer in personality before you try to champion a cause. Not that adding non-white, straight, or male character is championing anything but, again, that's a discussion for another time. I couldn't care less about a Jerome that's just there for brownie points with the black community when somebody could give me a Reginald with hopes, dreams, flaws, and failures.

I think, quite honestly, it's insulting. I don't want a Jasmine like me to be on screen if you're gonna devote all your time and effort on the Paul. That's just lazy.

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

I think nowadays people are obsessed with making their characters visually (and whatever you'd call sexual preferences in this context) different. I remember a lady on some news network complaining about the lack of black toys in Toy Story 4 because her 'kids couldn't see themselves as one of the toys'. Personally, I think it's very limiting to not being able to empathize with somebody because they don't look like you. Awful, actually. We've seen the results of people not caring about the plights of others because of physical differences. But that's a conversation for another time.

I don't read much on this site and I've never seen this problem on RR but I for one am a firm believer in personality before you try to champion a cause. Not that adding non-white, straight, or male character is championing anything but, again, that's a discussion for another time. I couldn't care less about a Jerome that's just there for brownie points with the black community when somebody could give me a Reginald with hopes, dreams, flaws, and failures.

I think, quite honestly, it's insulting. I don't want a Jasmine like me to be on screen if you're gonna devote all your time and effort on the Paul. That's just lazy.

This is predominately an American problem as the USA never have tackled their own history, their history of genocide, exploitation, and structural racism which left an ethnically diverse nation like the USA a heritage of dubious quality. The fundamental question who is America was never properly answered.

Here across the big pond, this attitude is less pronounced.

 

[minacia]

Tbh, I don't really know that many amateur authors trying to force diverse casts into their stories.

EDIT: If you're reading a story from a minority author, I think you might see more representation of minority characters (whether by sexuality or race), but I don't really ever recall feeling that it was "forced". But then again, I know plenty of non-binary people, so in many cases the author is just writing with reference to what they see around themselves.

 

[Schwab]

This is predominately an American problem as the USA never have tackled their own history, their history of genocide, exploitation, and structural racism which left an ethnically diverse nation like the USA a heritage of dubious quality. The fundamental question who is America was never properly answered.

Here across the big pond, this attitude is less pronounced.

I suppose that's what you get when you've got the great American melting pot.

At least that's how School House Rock tried to put it...

 

[Schwab]

Tbh, I don't really know that many amateur authors trying to force diverse casts into their stories.

EDIT: If you're reading a story from a minority author, I think you might see more representation of minority characters (whether by sexuality or race), but I don't really ever recall feeling that it was "forced". But then again, I know plenty of non-binary people, so in many cases the author is just writing with reference to what they see around themselves.

I think it's exactly the amateur author that writes forced diversity, just not on a small scale such as SH. You get it more in the big leagues, stuff like movies and...whatever's happening with comic books.

 

[minacia]

I think it's exactly the amateur author that writes forced diversity, just not on a small scale such as SH. You get it more in the big leagues, stuff like movies and...whatever's happening with comic books.

I think I'm not processing this sentence. Was there a typo somewhere?

I've had a conversation about this before about diversity in the "big leagues", but it's a marketing strategy basically. In terms of pure demographics, I think the United States public as a whole (in terms of a numerical majority) has drifted more towards to preferring some kind of diversity rather none at all. If it didn't sell, I don't think you would see all these companies trying to do it, oftentimes with a cringeworthy result.

All companies are fundamentally profit-driven whichever way it happens.

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

I suppose that's what you get when you've got the great American melting pot.

At least that's how School House Rock tried to put it...

Indeed, America has a complicated ethnic composition. In comparison, in Japanese novels the issue of ethnic diversity has little relevance as Japan is a homogeneous society.

 

[Vaxel00]

. Personally, I think it's very limiting to not being able to empathize with somebody because they don't look like you. Awful, actually. We've seen the results of people not caring about the plights of others because of physical differences. But that's a conversation for another time.

That's just how human nature works, we're tribalistic.

It's easier to be more empathetic to people that look like you, people gravitate towards those that have something in common with them and whatever visual cue will have an impact on the first impression. You see this in you circle of friends, in my circle of friends people sometimes think were related.

I do agree with you, when you focus on your agenda instead of the story you're not really making a point, it's just annoying.

Any author can do whatever they want and push whatever agenda they like in their work, however they can't change how the free market works and force their work to succeed.

 

[Vaxel00]

I think I'm not processing this sentence. Was there a typo somewhere?

I've had a conversation about this before about diversity in the "big leagues", but it's a marketing strategy basically. In terms of pure demographics, I think the United States public as a whole (in terms of a numerical majority) has drifted more towards to preferring some kind of diversity rather none at all. If it didn't sell, I don't think you would see all these companies trying to do it, oftentimes with a cringeworthy result.

All companies are fundamentally profit-driven whichever way it happens.

You'd think but no.

In fact the numbers of both major publishers (marvel and DC) are through the ground, the titles they push don't sell (like Captain marvel or Ms. Marvel.)

Ever since they started to push this diversity thing in comics they're just bleeding money, many comic book shops have had to close due to low demand of this titles (before pandemic)

 

[minacia]

You'd think but no.

In fact the numbers of both major publishers (marvel and DC) are through the ground, the titles they push don't sell (like Captain marvel or Ms. Marvel.)

Ever since they started to push this diversity thing in comics they're just bleeding money, many comic book shops have had to close due to low demand of this titles (before pandemic)

I think it's too narrow to take specific industries as examples for a global phenomenon (pretty much every Western business is pro-diversity these days). Comics as an entire industry is on a decline, not limited to just marvel and DC.

On the other hand, there are many cases appealing to diversity broad a lot of commercial success to various companies.

Regardless of how much you hate the Star Wars sequels, they were commercially extremely successful and grossed far more than any of the prior films.

Similarly speaking, the Nike commercial started a copy-me trend where a bunch of other businesses attempted to put out pro-diversity commercials when they saw how well Nike trended after their commercial that addressed those things.

 

[CupcakeNinja]

I think nowadays people are obsessed with making their characters visually (and whatever you'd call sexual preferences in this context) different. I remember a lady on some news network complaining about the lack of black toys in Toy Story 4 because her 'kids couldn't see themselves as one of the toys'. Personally, I think it's very limiting to not being able to empathize with somebody because they don't look like you. Awful, actually. We've seen the results of people not caring about the plights of others because of physical differences. But that's a conversation for another time.

I don't read much on this site and I've never seen this problem on RR but I for one am a firm believer in personality before you try to champion a cause. Not that adding non-white, straight, or male character is championing anything but, again, that's a discussion for another time. I couldn't care less about a Jerome that's just there for brownie points with the black community when somebody could give me a Reginald with hopes, dreams, flaws, and failures.

I think, quite honestly, it's insulting. I don't want a Jasmine like me to be on screen if you're gonna devote all your time and effort on the Paul. That's just lazy.

In other words go watch shit meant for your own community or race if you're gonna whine that you dont have any representation from one out of thousands of other shows or books or games out there.

Nowadays its more about appealing to the minorities than about appealing to the viewers. Race over character. Its bullshit. You got a good character and most people wont care what race they are. I'm native american but I dont give a fuck that I dont see anyone from my race on tv or in books. I just want characters I can love or hate with good reason.

I feel most other people are the same. If they arent? Then they can look harder for things that do appeal to them and represent them. Or make their own.

No one should have to feel obligated to give into their complaints. Especially not businesses. They want profits, which means appealing to the majority. That's reasonable. That's fair. But once they take It too far and star introducing the half black gay transgendered son of some dude from a random tribe somewhere...then you have a problem. Cuz that's gratuitous crap no one apart from like one dude wants. And that asshole can make his own shit

Dont gotta let him ruin OUR story with his shitty, poorly written stand in character.

 

[DeirdreH]

I think it's exactly the amateur author that writes forced diversity, just not on a small scale such as SH. You get it more in the big leagues, stuff like movies and...whatever's happening with comic books.

Maybe I've just encountered a few outliers but I've dropped a couple novels on this site because of badly done forced diversity. Rising from the Depths was especially bad about this: the author made sure that every single character introduced or even briefly mentioned in passing came from a different ethnic/national background yet the adding those details contributed absolutely nothing to the story. Growing up in vastly different environments had no effect on how the characters responded to events or the decisions they made, but the author made sure you knew that everybody came from a unique background for some reason.

Does that author think the life experiences and interactions that shape a personality are nothing more than a name tag that can be assigned by a random number generator?

Anyway I'm pretty sure I've seen at least a couple more like that but they weren't as egregious and aren't coming to mind right now.

 

[DreamOfRen]

"Forced" diversity doesn't exist.
Life is variety.
Black and brown people exist in all types, shapes and personalities.
Just like terrible / wonderful people of the alternate variety do.

Deal.

 

[yansusustories]

I think there are two things at play here: Representation and skill.

The people that want people like them represented often don't even want the representation to be the focal point of the character. They want a well-written character that just happens to share this thing with them which makes them a minority. They don't want a token character that's just in there for the quota.
And that is where a lot of media falls flat, IMO. They somehow slap a minority character in there but then they center everything around that or they pile identity onto identity. I remember a book I read, like, two years ago where the love interest oh-so-happened to be a black, demisexual, gay trans man who was practicing a minority religion as well. It came up once, the guy felt about as flat as cardboard to me, and I genuinely felt that the book was lacking in almost every aspect that would have been important to me. It would have made sense to focus on his religion, for example, because the setting had to do with religion (which finally didn't happen though as far as I remember, there were hardly any details shown and it had no real impact on the plot). The rest? Well, nice, but it just felt like too much.
I'm not even saying that kind of thing couldn't happen but, let's be honest, the combination would certainly be rare and there just comes a point where I can't help but roll my eyes. It's the same if a character somehow is a gifted concert pianist who hacks the government in their free time, goes mountain climbing when they're on vacation while phoning their president for the secret mission about some drug smuggler ring that they're going to take down with their awesome karate skills. Yeah, you can write that but I'll just feel like I would have liked the story to have some center, some consistency in where it wanted to go (unless it's a comedy, I can forgive comedies almost everything). And it becomes so much worse if half of that stuff is only mentioned once but never really shown. - That's just bad writing though.

Personally, I am part of a minority group myself. Growing up, I didn't know though. There wasn't a single movie or series that I saw, not a single book I read that had characters like me. Education on LGBT+ matters was non-existent when I went to school as well so I was left with just feeling like I didn't quite fit in until I kinda stumbled upon things in my mid-twenties. It was a relief when I found out and from conversations I had with other people and what I've seen others share online, I know I'm not the only one feeling that way.
And this is why I think that representation is actually important because it can show people that they are not alone in whatever they are experiencing because of their identity. We don't need to be in every show. We don't even need to be in every second or tenth one. We don't need to be the main characters either. But people shouldn't have to go through twenty years of watching and reading stuff without ever having the opportunity to come upon a person like them in at least a half-popular show or book. Just give us that one random side character that appears every now and then and whose orientation you'll bring up when it's relevant to the plot. (Which is easy, btw, any sexual orientation can simply be brought up in regard to dating questions or by introducing an SO, anything like that. It's not rocket science.)

Because of my own experiences, I do include minority characters in my stories. I mean, I'm writing gay romance so maybe no surprise there but I also try to include characters of other identities. It's a one-on-one basis thing though. I have two slots per year for a story where a character of my own orientation will be the main focus. Right now, their orientation is actually an important part of the plot but I might tone that down in the future (only started it in 2019 so right now, I want to explore some of the more closely-related stuff). For the rest of the year, my characters are usually just gay or maybe bi (because, again: gay romance, so kinda the prerequisite).
Every now and then, there are side characters with other orientations and that especially happens when there is a huge cast. Like, it's just a numbers game. If I have a cast with just five people, the main couple will be gay and the rest will be straight because that just makes sense. I think studies said up to 10% of men are gay/interested in men with the numbers likely being slightly lower actually? If I have a long story that spans several volumes and will thus have a bigger cast with maybe ten people or so already being the core while there will be maybe 20 more characters that regularly appear throughout the story but don't take the center stage for long and then having other characters that don't appear often but might be important in one arc or two before they vanish completely, then yeah, you bet there will be two or three characters of a different orientation among them. That's just how it'd be in real life as well.

 

[Racosharko]

I think there are two things at play here: Representation and skill

thanks for saving me time ?

 

[yansusustories]

thanks for saving me time ?

Haha, it's my pleasure. I should probably put a TL;DR in front of that though ...

 

[Vaxel00]

I think it's too narrow to take specific industries as examples for a global phenomenon (pretty much every Western business is pro-diversity these days). Comics as an entire industry is on a decline, not limited to just marvel and DC.

On the other hand, there are many cases appealing to diversity broad a lot of commercial success to various companies.

Regardless of how much you hate the Star Wars sequels, they were commercially extremely successful and grossed far more than any of the prior films.

Similarly speaking, the Nike commercial started a copy-me trend where a bunch of other businesses attempted to put out pro-diversity commercials when they saw how well Nike trended after their commercial that addressed those things.

Again, not really.

A good measurement are the stocks and layoffs and even pre pandemic there's been huge layoffs in Disney and other companies that adopt an SJW agenda.

Video games have taken a turn for the worse, so much that even their own staff are boycotting.

 

[minacia]

Again, not really.

A good measurement are the stocks and layoffs and even pre pandemic there's been huge layoffs in Disney and other companies that adopt an SJW agenda.

Video games have taken a turn for the worse, so much that even their own staff are boycotting.

Are you sure that's a fact and just not a narrative?

 

[Vaxel00]

Are you sure that's a fact and just not a narrative?
View attachment 5530

You're gonna make me do home work aren't you?

The video game graph tells me that both console and PCs markes have been stagnant for a couple of years and that the time to invest in mobile was in 2012 - 2014

 

[Tony]

I think nowadays people are obsessed with making their characters visually (and whatever you'd call sexual preferences in this context) different. I remember a lady on some news network complaining about the lack of black toys in Toy Story 4 because her 'kids couldn't see themselves as one of the toys'. Personally, I think it's very limiting to not being able to empathize with somebody because they don't look like you. Awful, actually. We've seen the results of people not caring about the plights of others because of physical differences. But that's a conversation for another time.

I don't read much on this site and I've never seen this problem on RR but I for one am a firm believer in personality before you try to champion a cause. Not that adding non-white, straight, or male character is championing anything but, again, that's a discussion for another time. I couldn't care less about a Jerome that's just there for brownie points with the black community when somebody could give me a Reginald with hopes, dreams, flaws, and failures.

I think, quite honestly, it's insulting. I don't want a Jasmine like me to be on screen if you're gonna devote all your time and effort on the Paul. That's just lazy.

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