Fake genre "Historical"

[Askun]

I normally don't like complaining but like, I can't emphasize how triggered I get when I see a story tagged as "Historical", then I click on it and see the following;

• 100% Fantasy setting
• Sytem
• Isekai
• No mention of Real places
• No mention of Real people
• No description what so ever of the era/year.

Like, at least Wuxia could be considered "Historical" since they mostly give you a feeling of being part of a mystical (Not) China. But like, the rest of the stories I see that use the "Historical" Genre, are just 100% original fantasy settings.

What's up with that?

Let me be honest, I've once wrote novel about archeologists protagonist (not on this site) who want to figured out what happens in the past. I give it historical genre because i think it is fit, although is not real history but fictional one. To this day, i am still wondering is the story i wrote deserved to have historical as it's genre.

is this consider fake genre

 

[Discount_Blade]

Let me be honest, I've once wrote novel about archeologists protagonist (not on this site) who want to figured out what happens in the past. I give it historical genre because i think it is fit, although is not real history but fictional one. To this day, i am still wondering is the story i wrote deserved to have historical as it's genre.

is this consider fake genre

What do you mean wanted to find out what happened in the past? Like, he went back into the days of a society/civilization that actually existed? Or what?

 

[Askun]

What do you mean wanted to find out what happened in the past? Like, he went back into the days of a society/civilization that actually existed? Or what?

i mean what i say... the protagonist is archeologists. He learn the culture of the past, what kind a lifestyle people in the past do, and how they manage to bring the civilization to the current state. You know like the real archeologists. Except is fictional world and not related to any real world event.

 

[Discount_Blade]

i mean what i say... the protagonist is archeologists. He learn the culture of the past, what kind a lifestyle people in the past do, and how they manage to bring the civilization to the current state. You know like the real archeologists. Except is fictional world and not related to any real world event.

If they go back to a time that existed in real life, than it's still can be considered under the historical genre. Even if you decide to switch it up and say....the Roman Empire never fell and became the very first nuclear power rather than the USA...it could still be considered under the Historical Genre. You could say that Genghis Khan discovered magic and the Mongol Empire became the first nation of magic wielders throwing fireballs and shit and you could still post it under the Historical Genre. It would be a loose claim to some, but it would still technically pass. The Historical Genre has so much leeway and people STILL don't fucking use it properly. I don't get it. But yeah, you're fine.

 

[Askun]

If they go back to a time that existed in real life, than it's still can be considered under the historical genre. Even if you decide to switch it up and say....the Roman Empire never fell and became the very first nuclear power rather than the USA...it could still be considered under the Historical Genre. You could say that Genghis Khan discovered magic and the Mongol Empire became the first nation of magic wielders throwing fireballs and shit and you could still post it under the Historical Genre. It would be a lose claim, but it would still technically pass. The Historical Genre has so much fucking leeway and people STILL don't fucking use it properly. I don't get it. But yeah, you're fine.

yeah, if come to that i would not skeptical about using, i love those alternative historical event nicel people wrote too.

the problem with the novel i wrote is, is completely fictional. The world is entirely different world. But protagonist really study the prehistorical event om those world. It may have similarity to the real world to some degree for a reference to make it more believable. But other than that, nothing resembles any historical event to the real world. Is completely fictional. I wrote this on wattpad, and just to be save i give it a tag Historical-Fiction ( bc you can add tag freely on wattpad.)

 

[Discount_Blade]

yeah, if come to that i would not skeptical about using, i love those alternative historical event nicel people wrote too.

the problem with the novel i wrote is, is completely fictional. The world is entirely different world. But protagonist really study the prehistorical event om those world. It may have similarity to the real world to some degree for a reference to make it more believable. But other than that, nothing resembles any historical event to the real world. Is completely fictional. I wrote this on wattpad, and just to be save i give it a tag Historical-Fiction ( bc you can add tag freely on wattpad.)

If it's not this world, then it's not apart of the Historical genre. It's a fantasy...maybe low-fantasy. You used the tag improperly.

 

[Askun]

i

If it's not this world, then it's not apart of the Historical genre. It's a fantasy...maybe low-fantasy. You used the tag improperly.

just do quick research on this cause i am curious. I found out that, there's a subgenre from historical called historical fantasy.

I am not saying my story fit into this category. Because even if it called historical fantasy, is still need to be take place on real world equivalent.

Also, my story is maybe in another world, but i did not consider it as fantasy. So i never dared to give it fantasy tag. I may re wrote it in here as a oneshot later and ask for opinion on that matter. Thank's for your response btw.

 

[Discount_Blade]

i

just do quick research on this cause i am curious. I found out that, there's a subgenre from historical called historical fantasy.

I am not saying my story fit into this category. Because even if it called historical fantasy, is still need to be take place on real world equivalent.

Also, my story is maybe in another world, but i did not consider it as fantasy. So i never dared to give it fantasy tag. I may re wrote it in here as a oneshot later and ask for opinion on that matter. Thank's for your response btw.

Still has to be on this world even for it to be considered Historical fantasy. But yeah no problem.

 

[lnv]

I normally don't like complaining but like, I can't emphasize how triggered I get when I see a story tagged as "Historical", then I click on it and see the following;

• 100% Fantasy setting
• Sytem
• Isekai
• No mention of Real places
• No mention of Real people
• No description what so ever of the era/year.

Like, at least Wuxia could be considered "Historical" since they mostly give you a feeling of being part of a mystical (Not) China. But like, the rest of the stories I see that use the "Historical" Genre, are just 100% original fantasy settings.

What's up with that?

Yes, you can have fantasy in a historical setting. You can also have it based on an old legend like say King Arthur. But you are correct that if it has no connection to our world history then it isn't historical really. As shown in the official NU genre explanation:

"Novels whose setting is in the past. Frequently these follow historical tales, sagas or facts.

World with kingdom setting that are not from actual history saga, tales, are not included."

Full list of genre definitions can be found here:
https://www.novelupdates.com/genre-explanation/

 

[lehur]

Looking smart maybe, many historian speak like they think they're smart-ass

 

[Discount_Blade]

Looking smart maybe, many historian speak like they think they're smart-ass

So are you just attacking me personally "just because" or do you have a specific reason as to why you feel that I'm wrong?

 

[CL]

I am curious about one thing: what about stories that have historical content riddled throughout in their second half of this novel? I do not want this to be mistaken that there is little content of what is tagged but that those tags won't show up until the readers are much further into this story. How does that work out in the tagging system?

 

[Discount_Blade]

I am curious about one thing: what about stories that have historical content riddled throughout in their second half of this novel? I do not want this to be mistaken that there is little content of what is tagged but that those tags won't show up until the readers are much further into this story. How does that work out in the tagging system?

If it has ANY historical content, then it fits. I mean you might want to make a mention of it in an author's note if its bothering you, but otherwise, if it's in, then use the tag. I mean if it has very little significance to the story in any way, then just decide at your own discretion, but otherwise have at it. No problem.

 

[lnv]

I am curious about one thing: what about stories that have historical content riddled throughout in their second half of this novel? I do not want this to be mistaken that there is little content of what is tagged but that those tags won't show up until the readers are much further into this story. How does that work out in the tagging system?

Unfortunately, there is no tag weights in SH, that said this is a genre, not a tag. Generally, genres are more significant than tags. So for something to be considered historical genre, the historical aspect has to play a major role in the story.

If historical content shows up in the later half, that is fine to still consider it historical as long as it is a major part of the story. If say Alexander the great shows up in 1 or 2 scenes, that isn't really historical genre

 

[lehur]

So are you just attacking me personally "just because" or do you have a specific reason as to why you feel that I'm wrong?

Who are you?

 

[The_Long_Serpent]

I normally don't like complaining but like, I can't emphasize how triggered I get when I see a story tagged as "Historical", then I click on it and see the following;

• 100% Fantasy setting
• Sytem
• Isekai
• No mention of Real places
• No mention of Real people
• No description what so ever of the era/year.

Like, at least Wuxia could be considered "Historical" since they mostly give you a feeling of being part of a mystical (Not) China. But like, the rest of the stories I see that use the "Historical" Genre, are just 100% original fantasy settings.

What's up with that?

I feel your pain. It is, at most, historically inspired.

 

[Toomanysorrows]

I'd have a question regarding this: I can totally see how using the historical genre would be annoying and why it's wrong to use in the cases you mentioned. Would you say though that it's the same with history-related tags like 'ancient times' or 'ancient China'?

The background of me asking is this: I have a few stories that aren't fantasy in that they don't have any common fantasy elements (e.g. no magic, no mystical creatures, no supernatural elements), the characters are just normal people but the stories aren't historical (so no actual real-world places are used and there isn't any real-world time period mentioned). They do draw on some historical points like customs but those are adapted to fit a setting I otherwise make up (like, if there are customs for worshipping gods, the gods might be made up by me or the ceremonial robes might differ from what's described in the actual records).
I wouldn't assign the historical genre in these cases because, well, it's not historical but I have usually used either the 'ancient times' or 'ancient China' tags (now that I think about it, the former should be more suitable than the latter?) because that is the feeling the stories evoke. In a similar fashion, I would give the 'modern times' or 'modern age' tags for stories with a contemporary feel even if they don't mention actual real-world places. I mostly use these tags so potential readers can distinguish between the settings.
Basically, I use them similar to the 'futuristic setting' tag. Unfortunately, there are no tags that specify some kind of made-up, pseudo-historical setting for such a case as far as I have seen.

Would you say using these tags is appropriate under these circumstances? Or do you have a better suggestion to make clear it's not historical? The fantasy genre or fantasy-related tags don't feel appropriate to me but I wasn't sure what else to use in these cases and I think a distinction is necessary for the readers who don't like the more contemporary stories.

I do actually think tags like this are alright to use for non historical stories. Terms like 'ancient China' or 'medieval' etc. are ways to denote periods and areas in our world's history but with the advent of historical fiction they've also become categories that combine certain sets of tropes together. Ancient China has emperors, imperial exams and probably a big wall up in the north, or medieval has knights and castles and something vaguely like the catholic church.

Of course, these tropes often have little relation to reality. Just think of how the term Viking is used in historical fiction: the Viking with tattoos, dreadlocks and nice leather trousers yelling about Valhalla has much more in common with the contemporary metal scene than any historical Viking. But those are the connotations the term has and those aren't going away.

So honestly, proper tagging should keep those connotations in mind and use them. If your stories evoke these settings so closely, you should tag as them because it's a good description of the story. It shows what tropes you'll be using and what world we can expect as a reader. And for everyone annoyed by there being non-historical works in that category, there'll be people (me included) who really wouldn't mind reading about a fictional setting that closely mirrors the (pop culture representation) of that particular era. After all, most historical fiction in these eras is basically fantasy anyway, so why not read something that's explicitly in a different world?

That said I do agree the historical tag in and of itself should be reserved for stories taking place in our world's history.

 

[yansusustories]

I do actually think tags like this are alright to use for non historical stories. Terms like 'ancient China' or 'medieval' etc. are ways to denote periods and areas in our world's history but with the advent of historical fiction they've also become categories that combine certain sets of tropes together. Ancient China has emperors, imperial exams and probably a big wall up in the north, or medieval has knights and castles and something vaguely like the catholic church.

Of course, these tropes often have little relation to reality. Just think of how the term Viking is used in historical fiction: the Viking with tattoos, dreadlocks and nice leather trousers yelling about Valhalla has much more in common with the contemporary metal scene than any historical Viking. But those are the connotations the term has and those aren't going away.

So honestly, proper tagging should keep those connotations in mind and use them. If your stories evoke these settings so closely, you should tag as them because it's a good description of the story. It shows what tropes you'll be using and what world we can expect as a reader. And for everyone annoyed by there being non-historical works in that category, there'll be people (me included) who really wouldn't mind reading about a fictional setting that closely mirrors the (pop culture representation) of that particular era. After all, most historical fiction in these eras is basically fantasy anyway, so why not read something that's explicitly in a different world?

That said I do agree the historical tag in and of itself should be reserved for stories taking place in our world's history.

Oh, that's an interesting point. I finally went with the 'ancient times' tag now and threw out the 'ancient China' tag because it seemed to fit well and the eastern part could be inferred from the synopsis. But I'll keep this in mind for future projects where it might be necessary to differentiate

 

[DarkGodEM]

I normally don't like complaining but like, I can't emphasize how triggered I get when I see a story tagged as "Historical", then I click on it and see the following;

• 100% Fantasy setting
• Sytem
• Isekai
• No mention of Real places
• No mention of Real people
• No description what so ever of the era/year.

Like, at least Wuxia could be considered "Historical" since they mostly give you a feeling of being part of a mystical (Not) China. But like, the rest of the stories I see that use the "Historical" Genre, are just 100% original fantasy settings.

What's up with that?

My next novel:
Der Fuhrer in another world: The loli nazi
ITS GONNA BE HISTORICAL FYCK IT

 

[FADEX]

I normally don't like complaining but like, I can't emphasize how triggered I get when I see a story tagged as "Historical", then I click on it and see the following;

• 100% Fantasy setting
• Sytem
• Isekai
• No mention of Real places
• No mention of Real people
• No description what so ever of the era/year.

Like, at least Wuxia could be considered "Historical" since they mostly give you a feeling of being part of a mystical (Not) China. But like, the rest of the stories I see that use the "Historical" Genre, are just 100% original fantasy settings.

What's up with that?

Wikipedia says:

*Historical fantasy is a category of fantasy and genre of historical fiction that incorporates fantastic elements (such as magic) into a more "realistic" narrative.

*Historical fantasy may also be set in a fictional world which resembles a period from history but is not that actual history.

And that's how I use it...