Separated BG (Boy/Girl aka M/F) romance genre or tag

[bafflinghaze]

Given that Boys Love and Girls Love are their own separate genres, it would make sense to have BG (Boy/Girl) Love as a separate genre, or at least tag, so that readers can include or filter out as necessary.

[It would also be neat to have a "no romance" tag too]

edit: alternate names include Male-Female Relationship

 

[Moonpearl]

I never said anything about having sex in the story nor cheating?

I just expect at the minimum a love triangle involving men and women though... I wouldn't really complain if I didn't find it though, I just don't see the point of adding remarkable characteristics to your protagonist if you aren't going to play into them.

It's not necessary. Playing into your character's bisexuality doesn't have to be done that way. Really, that's a pretty tired and overused trope already...

 

[RepresentingWrath]

My bad, I forgot how to access the tag list on Scribbly, so I just looked at an old post that had them all listed out. And it was using the old name at that point.

Glad it was changed already~

I agree that we definitely need the definitions, but we need to wait until Tony has the time to implement them~

I was honestly a bit baffled when I found out that not even the genres have definitions.

I never said anything about having sex in the story nor cheating?

I just expect at the minimum a love triangle involving men and women though... I wouldn't really complain if I didn't find it though, I just don't see the point of adding remarkable characteristics to your protagonist if you aren't going to play into them.

By all means make a thread about all tags you consider worthless and suggest their removal.

In NU I could just list all the pointless stuff directly in the tag cleaning threads and remove them myself once I got the approval of the mods, but over here the method is more convoluted because tags are used by the authors themselves instead of handled by users, so... I dunno how well that will work, but I don't see why not trying.

Do you know by memory the name of all 700+ tags on Scribbly? I know I don't.

If I wanna search for a story with a given characteristic, I first need to find out rather or not a tag exists for it, and I need to search through 700+ tags to find that out... It's quite easy to scroll past through it by accident.

Tony is the one with the final decision. Users can give their own two cents on what they consider redundant or not though, and I personally believe that a BG genre would indeed be redundant.

You're trying to take my words out of context.

BL covers all homosexual relationships between men. I was replying to someone that wanted a separate tag for LGBTQ+ romance between men, which is unnecessary as that is covered by BL.

Similarly, you don't need a tag for LGBTQ+ romance between women because that is covered by GL.

And a romance involving a transgender character is also covered by the transgender tag.

I was not saying that BL covered the entirety of LGBTQ+. The context should have made that clear, I believe.

Erm, did you not know that you can search the tag by typing there, and the list would decrease? I don't know all the tags, but I know the tags I would like to read, thus I type them in there, and add whatever I want.
Also, it's okay that you think that this tag is redundant, but some people think it isn't. I don't think your argument would end up with someone changing their opinion, so in the end, it's more of an appeal to the administrator.
It would be great if a statistic could be added, of which tags are used more, and which tags aren't used at all. This would give us a view of what is redundant. If such a statistic is available, it would be good to add this new tag and then delete it if it's not used, alongside with other such tags. I don't know if it's as simple as it looks though.

 

[bafflinghaze]

You're trying to take my words out of context.

BL covers all homosexual relationships between men. I was replying to someone that wanted a separate tag for LGBTQ+ romance between men, which is unnecessary as that is covered by BL.

Similarly, you don't need a tag for LGBTQ+ romance between women because that is covered by GL.

And a romance involving a transgender character is also covered by the transgender tag.

I was not saying that BL covered the entirety of LGBTQ+. The context should have made that clear, I believe.

Sorry if I misinterpreted you.

I still believe that a LGBTQ+ tag would be useful if we did not have more specific tags such as Asexual Character, Nonbinary Character etc (since not all trans people are nonbinary! I know that there is a Genderless Character tag, but not all nonbinary people are genderless!). But I suppose that's getting ahead of ourselves since we haven't even done the bare minimum of separating out BG Romance...

 

[AliceShiki]

Erm, did you not know that you can search the tag by typing there, and the list would decrease?

Yes, I'm well aware.

I don't know all the tags, but I know the tags I would like to read, thus I type them in there, and add whatever I want.

You're assuming that the person searching for things actually knows that the tag they want exists. And that they also know the exact wording used for it.

Let me try giving an example... Let's assume you want to find a story with a protagonist that is merciless to his enemies and kills them on the spot, not giving them a chance to retreat and fight again... Well, what would you search for?

Merciless Protagonist? That doesn't exist.
Bloodthirsty Protagonist perhaps? It doesn't exist either.

What probably fits into what you want is Ruthless Protagonist. But if you didn't think of the word "Ruthless" to define your protagonist, then you won't find out that this tag exists. Then your options are to...

1. Give Up.
2. Ask for help in the forums
3. Try browsing through the entire tag list to see if you find what you want. Hoping that you don't accidentally scroll through it by chance due to being a huuuuuuge list already.

The 1st and 3rd options are definitely the most popular ones, and I'd guess the 1st one wins by a large margin.

This issue also applies to authors, mind you. Trying to scroll through the entire list to see what fits into your story isn't exactly a pleasant experience.

It would be great if a statistic could be added, of which tags are used more, and which tags aren't used at all. This would give us a view of what is redundant. If such a statistic is available, it would be good to add this new tag and then delete it if it's not used, alongside with other such tags. I don't know if it's as simple as it looks though.

The statistics of this definitely exist, I just dunno if they're available to users. I think they're private rn.

They're easily visible in NU for one.

 

[bafflinghaze]

You're assuming that the person searching for things actually knows that the tag they want exists. And that they also know the exact wording used for it.

Let me try giving an example... Let's assume you want to find a story with a protagonist that is merciless to his enemies and kills them on the spot, not giving them a chance to retreat and fight again... Well, what would you search for?

Merciless Protagonist? That doesn't exist.
Bloodthirsty Protagonist perhaps? It doesn't exist either.

What probably fits into what you want is Ruthless Protagonist. But if you didn't think of the word "Ruthless" to define your protagonist, then you won't find out that this tag exists. Then your options are to...

1. Give Up.
2. Ask for help in the forums
3. Try browsing through the entire tag list to see if you find what you want. Hoping that you don't accidentally scroll through it by chance due to being a huuuuuuge list already.

The 1st and 3rd options are definitely the most popular ones, and I'd guess the 1st one wins by a large margin.

I think there was another request about a tag dictionary or some alternate categorisation for the tags to make them more manageable.

(My ideal would be the AO3 tagging system, all of those possibilities you suggested would be used, and would be, behind the scenes, wrangled to be synonyms of each other, so that if someone searches up "Merciless Protagonist", you would automatically get the results of works tagged "Merciless Protagonist" Bloodthirsty etc., but something like that requires a large team to manage.)

 

[AliceShiki]

I think there was another request about a tag dictionary or some alternate categorisation for the tags to make them more manageable.

Aye, there was one indeed~

(My ideal would be the AO3 tagging system, all of those possibilities you suggested would be used, and would be, behind the scenes, wrangled to be synonyms of each other, so that if someone searches up "Merciless Protagonist", you would automatically get the results of works tagged "Merciless Protagonist" Bloodthirsty etc., but something like that requires a large team to manage.)

That's a pretty interesting system, I'd like to see something like that~

... Or at the very least a system that put the tags under categories... Like... Everything that refers to the protagonist would be under the protagonist category and stuff. Would make it much easier to parse through things~

... Well, the mods have been asking for something along those lines in NU for a while though, so I don't have that many hopes of it happening any time soon... >.>

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Yes, I'm well aware.

You're assuming that the person searching for things actually knows that the tag they want exists. And that they also know the exact wording used for it.

Let me try giving an example... Let's assume you want to find a story with a protagonist that is merciless to his enemies and kills them on the spot, not giving them a chance to retreat and fight again... Well, what would you search for?

Merciless Protagonist? That doesn't exist.
Bloodthirsty Protagonist perhaps? It doesn't exist either.

What probably fits into what you want is Ruthless Protagonist. But if you didn't think of the word "Ruthless" to define your protagonist, then you won't find out that this tag exists. Then your options are to...

1. Give Up.
2. Ask for help in the forums
3. Try browsing through the entire tag list to see if you find what you want. Hoping that you don't accidentally scroll through it by chance due to being a huuuuuuge list already.

The 1st and 3rd options are definitely the most popular ones, and I'd guess the 1st one wins by a large margin.

This issue also applies to authors, mind you. Trying to scroll through the entire list to see what fits into your story isn't exactly a pleasant experience.

The statistics of this definitely exist, I just dunno if they're available to users. I think they're private rn.

They're easily visible in NU for one.

First of all, I don't think that examples are a good thing to use in the arguments, as I can make up an ideal example in return. The one that would fit my point of view.
In your example, you made a mistake. You don't need to scroll through all the tags. You type in the word protagonist and get all the tags with the word protagonist, that's all.
Also, this problem would as well become obsolete, or at least much less, if there would be a clear definition made by an administrator with the help of people. A clear definition would also help with sorting out what tags are useful and should be kept.
I'm an author, and I didn't find it unpleasant. In fact, I was really grateful that there are so many tags unlike in Royal Road. Or web novel, where there are 4\5 versions of the tag r-18, now that is redundant. A large number of tags help me to narrow down those who would look into my novel and find it unpleasant and leave disappointed.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Also, I would like to add, that at least on this forum, there are people who want this tag and would use it. Which means it won't be redundant. There is already a demand, you can't do anything about it.

 

[Maple-Leaf]

At the end of the day, the tags you don't use can easily be labeled as redundant if they're alike to another, and you would be able to tell the slight differences in the tags you do use.
A tag that, clearly, many people intend to, or would like to see used isn't some unnecessary addition to the tags list. Tags, no matter how similar they are to the others, are of value if they're used. It's not about how similar or repetitive they may be, if they're used separately to denote even the slightest of different things, shouldn't be considered redundant. Tags that are never used, or are substituted by similar tags, should be removed for those reasons. We won't know if the BG love tag would sink or float when thrown into the tag list, and that's what's being guessed at here. Some think it's unnecessary because they think romance would do the job well enough, and others think it's necessary because they're hyper aware of the differences and the different ways it could be used.

Honestly, I think the bigger issue is that most people don't even know what BG means. Heck, for the longest time I didn't know. Without a tag dictionary, a large portion of people would have no idea it exists, and even if they came across it, wouldn't know how and when to use it. With that in mind, it would indeed become redundant.

I can't see myself using the tag very often, but clearly some people do, so I think that should be taken into account.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

At the end of the day, the tags you don't use can easily be labeled as redundant if they're alike to another, and you would be able to tell the slight differences in the tags you do use.
A tag that, clearly, many people intend to, or would like to see used isn't some unnecessary addition to the tags list. Tags, no matter how similar they are to the others, are of value if they're used. It's not about how similar or repetitive they may be, if they're used separately to denote even the slightest of different things, shouldn't be considered redundant. Tags that are never used, or are substituted by similar tags, should be removed for those reasons. We won't know if the BG love tag would sink or float when thrown into the tag list, and that's what's being guessed at here. Some think it's unnecessary because they think romance would do the job well enough, and others think it's necessary because they're hyper aware of the differences and the different ways it could be used.

Honestly, I think the bigger issue is that most people don't even know what BG means. Heck, for the longest time I didn't know. Without a tag dictionary, a large portion of people would have no idea it exists, and even if they came across it, wouldn't know how and when to use it. With that in mind, it would indeed become redundant.

I can't see myself using the tag very often, but clearly some people do, so I think that should be taken into account.

If you can add a tag, I guess you can remove it as well. What's the problem here? You don't want to bother the administration because you think this isn't important enough? In the end, if it makes the life of readers or authors a bit better, why not do it?

 

[AliceShiki]

A tag that, clearly, many people intend to, or would like to see used isn't some unnecessary addition to the tags list. Tags, no matter how similar they are to the others, are of value if they're used. It's not about how similar or repetitive they may be, if they're used separately to denote even the slightest of different things, shouldn't be considered redundant. Tags that are never used, or are substituted by similar tags, should be removed for those reasons. We won't know if the BG love tag would sink or float when thrown into the tag list, and that's what's being guessed at here. Some think it's unnecessary because they think romance would do the job well enough, and others think it's necessary because they're hyper aware of the differences and the different ways it could be used.

I just wanted to clarify that my stance isn't that Romance alone is enough for BG romance, as romance is too broad by itself.

However, I do believe anyone that wants a specific type of BL/GL is able to find it by properly using the Series Finder to exclude the tags and genres they don't want to see in their novel, hence why I don't see the need for a BG Romance tag. As it can be covered by excluding other choices when searching.

 

[yansusustories]

... Or at the very least a system that put the tags under categories... Like... Everything that refers to the protagonist would be under the protagonist category and stuff. Would make it much easier to parse through things~

I agree so much on this. Honestly, this would make things so much easier on both sides

Honestly, I think the bigger issue is that most people don't even know what BG means. Heck, for the longest time I didn't know. Without a tag dictionary, a large portion of people would have no idea it exists, and even if they came across it, wouldn't know how and when to use it. With that in mind, it would indeed become redundant.

Personally, I'd go for a different name maybe. I think I saw someone mention 'male-female relationship' somewhere on this thread and think that might be a good fit. It's exactly what BG means, doesn't even include romance so is more open to different types of relationships (e.g., both romantic, sexual, or anything in-between) but is straightforward enough that everybody can see at a glance what is meant.

 

[Norseman]

I vote no to enabeling hetrofobia.

Centuries of homofobia was bad enough, let's not make a new one.

 

[Discount_Blade]

I mean, unless we enforce all these rules with harsh consequences this entire thread would fall apart pretty fucken fast if no one decides to use these tags accordingly. We already have a problem where people use tags on things that aren't in the story at all. Even if they claim to add those soon, some stories might get dropped and discontinued and there's no possible guarantee that they might edit it back.

Case in point, the GL/BL tags. Didn't we have a massive back and forth between members just because some guys aren't happy with major straight romance in supposedly GL titles?

I don't know what BG is but what I do know is that we better fix the chefs' habits before we fix the menu. Having new options is cool and all but what's the point if people don't use it correctly?

I realize this doesn't send the discussion anywhere but really, is adding the new tag really gonna help in any considerable way?

No it won't help anything. Everyone will find something else to piss and moan about regarding sex and gender and relationship this and that. Then it'll be back to nitpicking and suddenly creating another dozen useless subgenre's that no one will use or care about much beyond the brief but fleeting satisfaction they get from feeling pleased at having these new things added.

 

[yansusustories]

No it won't help anything. Everyone will find something else to piss and moan about regarding sex and gender and relationship this and that. Then it'll be back to nitpicking and suddenly creating another dozen useless subgenre's that no one will use or care about much beyond the brief but fleeting satisfaction they get from feeling pleased at having these new things added.

I mean, it would be nice to have all the major categories at least to showcase the spectrum of possible relationships and sexualities. Currently, we don't even have that. It's imo somewhat different with gender. There's a female protagonist tag, a male protagonist tag, a transgender tag, and a genderless protagonist tag. That should be able to encompass all the smaller identities that people might want to incorporate since they'd likely fall under one of those terms.

 

[Queenfisher]

I vote no to enabeling hetrofobia.

Centuries of homofobia was bad enough, let's not make a new one.

Mmm? But isn't it like saying that BL and GL = homophobia, then? Seeing a specific tree and calling it that specific tree name is not tree-phobia. It's just being Carl Linnaeus, .

No it won't help anything. Everyone will find something else to piss and moan about regarding sex and gender and relationship this and that. Then it'll be back to nitpicking and suddenly creating another dozen useless subgenre's that no one will use or care about much beyond the brief but fleeting satisfaction they get from feeling pleased at having these new things added.

Yes, and there will also be people who piss and moan about other people pissing and moaning about other people pissing and moaning about other people...

So what's the difference between your pissing and moaning and someone else's pissing and moaning? None.

It's a Circle of Liiiiiife!

Also, to add to @yansusustories 's point:

What people asking for specific tags want -- is essentially this:

If reading is food for thought, then some people just want to know what goes into the stuff they "consume". As an allegory, some people are lactose-intolerant while others are not. Does it hurt those who are not that the label says it has lactose inside?

No. Like others said before -- if you don't care, you're free to ignore it.

But for those who are lactose-intolerant, the correct label stops them from getting cranky when they're eventually fed something they did not want to consume.

Better, more efficient marketing to target demographics ===> more satisfied customers.

 

[Moonpearl]

(P.S. For those who haven't noticed the change in system yet, you can now upvote and downvote suggestions in this section.

If you want to support this idea, you can click the up-facing arrow at the bottom or right side of the opening post.)

 

[Sabruness]

wow, i did not even know SH has 700+ tags now. I assume a good chunk were imported from NU when SH was made?.

Perhaps, in conjunction with considering worthwhile tags that dont exist yet but should, the community could come together to work through the list and decide on those tags that are useless, never used, are unlikely to be used and could thus be culled to make space for new, worthwhile tags.

It would be great if a statistic could be added, of which tags are used more, and which tags aren't used at all. This would give us a view of what is redundant. If such a statistic is available, it would be good to add this new tag and then delete it if it's not used, alongside with other such tags. I don't know if it's as simple as it looks though.

If this is possible, the statistics could help with any culling effort.

then, on top, perhaps a stickied thread in this particular subforum where tags can be suggested and debated by the community for the consideration of Tony and the staff.

of course, all of the suggested in this post would require a enormously massive effort so maybe as an ongoing long-term thing?

 

[yansusustories]

What people asking for specific tags want -- is essentially this

I really like that comparison. Actually makes me want to whip out Affinity and make a het+LGBTQ+ version of it

Perhaps, in conjunction with considering worthwhile tags that dont exist yet but should, the community could come together to work through the list and decide on those tags that are useless, never used, are unlikely to be used and could thus be culled to make space for new, worthwhile tags.

That's an interesting idea. Considering I have seen posts where people were doing some statistics stuff on genres and such, this could probably be done automatically, couldn't it?

 

[Sabruness]

I really like that comparison. Actually makes me want to whip out Affinity and make a het+LGBTQ+ version of it


That's an interesting idea. Considering I have seen posts where people were doing some statistics stuff on genres and such, this could probably be done automatically, couldn't it?

i suppose it could be possible but it's outside of my wheelhouse. If a list could be auto-compiled of tags and their number of uses (maybe from most to least) that would be a good starting point.

any SH folk able to perhaps figure something out that's workable?