Suicide in Fiction

[Mellohwa]

If a story begins or ends with suicide, whether implied or explicit, does it risk romanticizing it?

I struggle with stories where death is the only way of salvation or for a new beginning, like when a protagonist committed suicide and then reincarnated into a better world or with a better start. Or a depressing protagonist, a tragic protagonist, finds peace at the end of the story through death, and not just theprotagonist, but other characters too.

But I did like how tragedy and depression were shown in such stories.

Maybe it’s just me being oversensitive, but it can feel uncomfortable, as if suffering can only be rewarded through escape rather than confrontation. But of course, I believe stories should have creative freedom. Though it made me remember what I study in art philosophy: does the art reflect the maker's morality? Maybe this thread is a bit similar to OtherSlater's thread about endorsement. When does storytelling cross from depicting into endorsing it?

As a reader, what do you think? Should stories approach this more responsibly, or is it okay with just a precaution on the novel's description? Tbh, I kind of like stories with themes like suicide, or rather revolving around it without the part I said above. Any recommendations?

P.s; I'm sorry for my ignorance if this isn't the right section thread.

 

[Envylope]

For me, as long as an author is not telling the readers to do that then it's fine. Though, I wish authors would show this descent more. Too many authors show bad things happening like suicide or death and call it "dark."

If you really want to show someone's darkness that led to their suicide, show their light moments too. Show everything. Like that moment when they couldn't pay for something. Maybe they had a falling out with their friends. In every darkness, there needs to be some light to make it interesting. People that commit suicide usually weren't depressed all the time. You can see those light moments that makes the death sting even more. The moments where they cried out, "I want to live because nature is so beautiful."

Those are my thoughts. If you want a mature and darker story about suicide, you need to make the character not a simple trope "depressed guy." They will suffer, but they will also be extremely happy at times.

 

[Mellohwa]

For me, as long as an author is not telling the readers to do that then it's fine. Though, I wish authors would show this descent more. Too many authors show bad things happening like suicide or death and call it "dark."

If you really want to show someone's darkness that led to their suicide, show their light moments too. Show everything. Like that moment when they couldn't pay for something. Maybe they had a falling out with their friends. In every darkness, there needs to be some light to make it interesting. People that commit suicide usually weren't depressed all the time. You can see those light moments that makes the death sting even more. The moments where they cried out, "I want to live because nature is so beautiful."

Those are my thoughts. If you want a mature and darker story about suicide, you need to make the character not a simple trope "depressed guy." They will suffer, but they will also be extremely happy at times.

I agree; most of the time, it came out unrealistic. Like you've said, depression or tragedy isn't really all dark; there must've been some small moments that made the character want to live, and imo, depression and the attempt came from the what-ifs and hopelessness of being stagnant eflected from those happy moments.

When stories overlook that complexity, characters risk becoming just tropes. and plots.

 

[Envylope]

I agree; most of the time, it came out unrealistic. Like you've said, depression or tragedy isn't really all dark; there must've been some small moments that made the character want to live, and imo, depression and the attempt came from the what-ifs and hopelessness of being stagnant eflected from those happy moments.

When stories overlook that complexity, characters risk becoming just tropes. and plots.

Yeah, and a constantly dark story is a laughing stock. In order for darkness to have meaning you need light. Even in grimdark like Dark Souls, they incorporate some jolly characters. You cannot make a story with constant suffering and no relief. The suffering becomes a caricature and funny instead of sad.

 

[donutfan]

They do sometimes romanticize it. I think the crux of it lies in how the story approaches the topic, and how it pays it off in the end.

Before that, though, it is necessary to ask a question. If a character feels at peace once they die, what sort of morals does that show? Are you supposed to feel bittersweet at the conclusion, knowing that being alive would have meant suffering? Or are you meant to think their choice was shortsighted, and that one must never do something so drastic? Is it a character-study showing a person's descent into pain and loss, or is it a social commentary relying on the audience to understand the character is making the wrong decision?

Ultimately, it relies on how the story ends up framing it. Either way, it is acceptable and mature. The only time it reaches into the realm of uncomfortability for me is when it is romanticized. But that also ultimately lies in the hands of the author. I'll try to make a point as to the two types of 'suicides' I've seen which work in fiction, though it is a bit roundabout in this case. Spoiler warnings for Cowboy Bebop and Code Geass.

Spoiler: Spoiler Title or smthn?

So, both of these shows end with the main character committing suicide. Not directly, but they effectively just walk into a barrage of bullets, and a sword, each. Someone else 'kills' them, but it is of their own volition and choice. Effectively, assisted suicide. However, both of them deal with it in completely different manners.

In Code Geass, Lelouch's death is an inevitability. When he gives his own life to lead to a longer peace in the world, it falls into the first category. You can feel bad about the fact that he thought death was his only escape from his crimes, but you can see the objectivity in why he picked that choice. You can see that, regardless of the morality of suicide, him being alive would have been a much worse outcome for everyone involved. He weighed the same scales, and decided that death would be the easier option.

In Cowboy Bebop, Spike's death is not an inevitability. He goes and fights an unbeatable foe because he is incapable of moving on. This falls into the second category. All of Cowboy Bebop is about how people do not appreciate what they have, until they lose it. And about the search to find that missing something once more, and how everyone responds to it differently. Spike is meant to be a cautionary tale. Him dying at the end is meant to tell you that he did the wrong thing. And it works because of that. He fails his quest to move on, and does not learn to truly love the new family he has found. He was a romantic fool till the end, and ends up dead because of it.

So, yeah, I know I narrowed down my explanation to only people who have seen both of these shows, but hopefully it made sense to them. At the very least. Even without the spoiler, though, I think my first paragraph does a good job summarizing it. It is all about what the final message is, and how it is delivered. If it is done well, then suicide is easily one of the most human concepts a writer can dive deeper into.

 

[Mellohwa]

They do sometimes romanticize it. I think the crux of it lies in how the story approaches the topic, and how it pays it off in the end.

Before that, though, it is necessary to ask a question. If a character feels at peace once they die, what sort of morals does that show? Are you supposed to feel bittersweet at the conclusion, knowing that being alive would have meant suffering? Or are you meant to think their choice was shortsighted, and that one must never do something so drastic? Is it a character-study showing a person's descent into pain and loss, or is it a social commentary relying on the audience to understand the character is making the wrong decision?

Ultimately, it relies on how the story ends up framing it. Either way, it is acceptable and mature. The only time it reaches into the realm of uncomfortability for me is when it is romanticized. But that also ultimately lies in the hands of the author. I'll try to make a point as to the two types of 'suicides' I've seen which work in fiction, though it is a bit roundabout in this case. Spoiler warnings for Cowboy Bebop and Code Geass.

Spoiler: Spoiler Title or smthn?

So, both of these shows end with the main character committing suicide. Not directly, but they effectively just walk into a barrage of bullets, and a sword, each. Someone else 'kills' them, but it is of their own volition and choice. Effectively, assisted suicide. However, both of them deal with it in completely different manners.

In Code Geass, Lelouch's death is an inevitability. When he gives his own life to lead to a longer peace in the world, it falls into the first category. You can feel bad about the fact that he thought death was his only escape from his crimes, but you can see the objectivity in why he picked that choice. You can see that, regardless of the morality of suicide, him being alive would have been a much worse outcome for everyone involved. He weighed the same scales, and decided that death would be the easier option.

In Cowboy Bebop, Spike's death is not an inevitability. He goes and fights an unbeatable foe because he is incapable of moving on. This falls into the second category. All of Cowboy Bebop is about how people do not appreciate what they have, until they lose it. And about the search to find that missing something once more, and how everyone responds to it differently. Spike is meant to be a cautionary tale. Him dying at the end is meant to tell you that he did the wrong thing. And it works because of that. He fails his quest to move on, and does not learn to truly love the new family he has found. He was a romantic fool till the end, and ends up dead because of it.

So, yeah, I know I narrowed down my explanation to only people who have seen both of these shows, but hopefully it made sense to them. At the very least. Even without the spoiler, though, I think my first paragraph does a good job summarizing it. It is all about what the final message is, and how it is delivered. If it is done well, then suicide is easily one of the most human concepts a writer can dive deeper into.

You really put this well, especially the question of what the audience is meant to feel at the end of that act. I think this is a good line to draw for romanticizing and/or endorsing. And I just noticed from your post how framing matters in this case. Thank you for the example. Though it begs another important thing, I realized, from Code Geass at least, the story still continues after Lelouch's death, and it brought how other characters felt. I think it is important to add a griefing scene well, or acknowledgement of what is lost for a well-delivered story.

 

[L1aei]

You ever considered how the novel would follow up if they failed?

 

[Mellohwa]

You ever considered how the novel would follow up if they failed?

what do you mean?

 

[L1aei]

what do you mean?

Heading to work. I'll explain when I return, okay?

 

[Time4T]

I strongly believe in freedom of speech and the right of the creator to express their vision. Lots of stories depict violence positively. Torture, rape and murder often by the hands of the "hero" main character. But I doubt that Rape World or Murder Hobos are likely to influence the behavior of any reader. On the other hand, given the emotional state of someone with suicidal depression, I believe it possible they could be influenced by a romanticized depiction of suicide. Yes the Creator should have freedom of expression. But all of us also have a social responsibility. I would just hope that the author would be cognizant of this and act responsibly.

 

[Nolff]

If a story begins or ends with suicide, whether implied or explicit, does it risk romanticizing it?

I struggle with stories where death is the only way of salvation or for a new beginning, like when a protagonist committed suicide and then reincarnated into a better world or with a better start. Or a depressing protagonist, a tragic protagonist, finds peace at the end of the story through death, and not just theprotagonist, but other characters too.

But I did like how tragedy and depression were shown in such stories.

Maybe it’s just me being oversensitive, but it can feel uncomfortable, as if suffering can only be rewarded through escape rather than confrontation. But of course, I believe stories should have creative freedom. Though it made me remember what I study in art philosophy: does the art reflect the maker's morality? Maybe this thread is a bit similar to OtherSlater's thread about endorsement. When does storytelling cross from depicting into endorsing it?

As a reader, what do you think? Should stories approach this more responsibly, or is it okay with just a precaution on the novel's description? Tbh, I kind of like stories with themes like suicide, or rather revolving around it without the part I said above. Any recommendations?

P.s; I'm sorry for my ignorance if this isn't the right section thread.

I am those readers who leans more towards psychological horror genre rather than classic horror. I've been playing games like that, one of them being Cry of Fear. For me, the depiction of someone's suicide should have a purpose towards the part where the plot would become sorrowful, a turning point where the suicidal character could either be important to the plot or just a reminder that we're living in the world where something bad could be taken as good things, both in the wrong way possible, or the good way.

And when you've become a Project Moon sleeper agent (fan), looking at a suicide feels like it should have more... Feelings. There's gotta be something that pushed you to the brink of death, doing it, but at the same time, you're willing not to because there are some things you should really reconsider before even doing something as stupid as stabbing yourself. I've seen how crazy or depressed people try to kill themselves, and I too, have felt the need to throw myself to the incoming speedy traffic because of how worthless I feel whenever I am with my family, once.

I... Can't find the solid ground explaining it. All I know is that, when you're writing someone's darkest moment, you should know that that... Could happen to you, or to someone in the real world. Every time a tragic character is present, I somehow always able to resonate with how they're feeling. And if those characters were written nicely, I'd have breakdowns, one after another. I cannot stress how affecting this phenomenon is to my psyche. Why should someone even live that long being unloved? Why should there be sorrow? Why are the ill looked at us like monsters?

I need to stop this, lest I distort myself into a homicidal boyo.

 

[OtherSlater]

The problem is two fold. For Isakai, ending your life because you’re a loser or whatever is rewarded with a better life beyond. It puts a bad taste in my mouth. You expect to root for this pervert?

On the other hand, most teenie bopper novels have a problem with the characters being cartoonishly evil. Bullying sucks, but those kids aren’t super villains. They use death as a “revenge” plot and it’s awful.

 

[AstreiaNyx]

Tbh, I kind of like stories with themes like suicide, or rather revolving around it without the part I said above. Any recommendations?

There is a popular isekai manhwa/novel that depicts this realistically. You can look up: The Broken Ring: This Marriage Will Fail Anyway

 

[L1aei]

what do you mean?

Alright, back from work.

So, I'm not talking about the act but, rather, about the aftermath. You know, the mess that doesn't evaporate in a poetic fade-to-black.

See, most stories treat suicide as an ending or the period to a narrative. Well, what if it wasn't a period but a comma? Yeah, let's continue the story because a failed attempt isn't just "IT'S ALIVE!" like a Frankenstein. Like, look at the social field that orbits around them, okay?

Let's start off with the hospital trying to keep this person alive, then there's the paperwork, and all sorts of evaluations. That's the clinical shit. But we still have family oscillating between guilt, anger, and even surveillance over this poor fella. Oh, not just family, but we got friends walking on shattered glass, some of them under the belief they can fix this while others are getting the fuck out of here before they fall through as collateral. And that collateral? I'm talking about others who see this attempted suicide person as being seen as someone who thought so little of their own life, what must they think of the lives of others? Yeah, authority figures would suddenly present in ways that feel invasive just in case.

Now seeing all of this in orbit around them? You can imagine what that must be like for them to revisit that night again and again, and then again, forced to live inside a body they just tried to abandon.

Oh, right, almost forgot. This is also before we even get to the physical consequences like scars, chronic pain, cognitive effects, medication side effects, or even the quieter side of that damage; the shame, their defensiveness, resentment at being saved, or even the strange disorientation over still being here.

That's what I meant by the failure. Seriously, this isn't something one can easily romanticize when it presents the awkwardness, all of that bureaucracy they have to sort through, much of the unresolved issues that drove them to the act in the first place, the many miles of rebuilding trust among those they care about, and the serious fact that recovery isn't going to be a linear path... let alone a noble one.

I mean, any novel that covers an attempt to survive after that? They aren't just living anymore, they are being confronted; no escaping that. Yeah, these sort of characters don't get a reset button, they receive consequences. And those consequences are powerful drives in any story.

What do I mean? Look at it this way, we got a character that might feel angry at failing, maybe relieved, possibly humiliated, or nothing at all. Hell, maybe it is a cocktail over all of those? Even if it is an isekai, they have to live on with the fact that they left something behind more than just their body. Look at Re:Zero as an example, each time the protagonist got killed, an alternate universe was left behind with everybody picking up whatever was left after he died each time.

 

[Mellohwa]

I strongly believe in freedom of speech and the right of the creator to express their vision. Lots of stories depict violence positively. Torture, rape and murder often by the hands of the "hero" main character. But I doubt that Rape World or Murder Hobos are likely to influence the behavior of any reader. On the other hand, given the emotional state of someone with suicidal depression, I believe it possible they could be influenced by a romanticized depiction of suicide. Yes the Creator should have freedom of expression. But all of us also have a social responsibility. I would just hope that the author would be cognizant of this and act responsibly.

that's a great point. Stories may not directly influence the reader's behavior, but they can relate to readers who are already vulnerable, like what Noif said here. And yeah, the balance between creative freedom and social awareness is a thin thread to stand.

I am those readers who leans more towards psychological horror genre rather than classic horror. I've been playing games like that, one of them being Cry of Fear. For me, the depiction of someone's suicide should have a purpose towards the part where the plot would become sorrowful, a turning point where the suicidal character could either be important to the plot or just a reminder that we're living in the world where something bad could be taken as good things, both in the wrong way possible, or the good way.

And when you've become a Project Moon sleeper agent (fan), looking at a suicide feels like it should have more... Feelings. There's gotta be something that pushed you to the brink of death, doing it, but at the same time, you're willing not to because there are some things you should really reconsider before even doing something as stupid as stabbing yourself. I've seen how crazy or depressed people try to kill themselves, and I too, have felt the need to throw myself to the incoming speedy traffic because of how worthless I feel whenever I am with my family, once.

I... Can't find the solid ground explaining it. All I know is that, when you're writing someone's darkest moment, you should know that that... Could happen to you, or to someone in the real world. Every time a tragic character is present, I somehow always able to resonate with how they're feeling. And if those characters were written nicely, I'd have breakdowns, one after another. I cannot stress how affecting this phenomenon is to my psyche. Why should someone even live that long being unloved? Why should there be sorrow? Why are the ill looked at us like monsters?

I need to stop this, lest I distort myself into a homicidal boyo.

I agree that when writers approach someone’s darkest moments, it deserves care because these struggles exist IRL. But again, I thought if the author had given a precaution, it would be best to heed it as a reader. Though, you reminded me that these stories don’t land the same way for every reader.

The problem is two fold. For Isakai, ending your life because you’re a loser or whatever is rewarded with a better life beyond. It puts a bad taste in my mouth. You expect to root for this pervert?

On the other hand, most teenie bopper novels have a problem with the characters being cartoonishly evil. Bullying sucks, but those kids aren’t super villains. They use death as a “revenge” plot and it’s awful.

RRight?? smh when I read characters like it, yeah, they will have character development, but it just puts a bad taste in the mouth, like you said. And for the revenge plot, I have to admit, it is quite satisfying.

There is a popular isekai manhwa/novel that depicts this realistically. You can look up: The Broken Ring: This Marriage Will Fail Anyway

Ohh! Finally a recommendation, thank you!

Alright, back from work.

So, I'm not talking about the act but, rather, about the aftermath. You know, the mess that doesn't evaporate in a poetic fade-to-black.

See, most stories treat suicide as an ending or the period to a narrative. Well, what if it wasn't a period but a comma? Yeah, let's continue the story because a failed attempt isn't just "IT'S ALIVE!" like a Frankenstein. Like, look at the social field that orbits around them, okay?

Let's start off with the hospital trying to keep this person alive, then there's the paperwork, and all sorts of evaluations. That's the clinical shit. But we still have family oscillating between guilt, anger, and even surveillance over this poor fella. Oh, not just family, but we got friends walking on shattered glass, some of them under the belief they can fix this while others are getting the fuck out of here before they fall through as collateral. And that collateral? I'm talking about others who see this attempted suicide person as being seen as someone who thought so little of their own life, what must they think of the lives of others? Yeah, authority figures would suddenly present in ways that feel invasive just in case.

Now seeing all of this in orbit around them? You can imagine what that must be like for them to revisit that night again and again, and then again, forced to live inside a body they just tried to abandon.

Oh, right, almost forgot. This is also before we even get to the physical consequences like scars, chronic pain, cognitive effects, medication side effects, or even the quieter side of that damage; the shame, their defensiveness, resentment at being saved, or even the strange disorientation over still being here.

That's what I meant by the failure. Seriously, this isn't something one can easily romanticize when it presents the awkwardness, all of that bureaucracy they have to sort through, much of the unresolved issues that drove them to the act in the first place, the many miles of rebuilding trust among those they care about, and the serious fact that recovery isn't going to be a linear path... let alone a noble one.

I mean, any novel that covers an attempt to survive after that? They aren't just living anymore, they are being confronted; no escaping that. Yeah, these sort of characters don't get a reset button, they receive consequences. And those consequences are powerful drives in any story.

What do I mean? Look at it this way, we got a character that might feel angry at failing, maybe relieved, possibly humiliated, or nothing at all. Hell, maybe it is a cocktail over all of those? Even if it is an isekai, they have to live on with the fact that they left something behind more than just their body. Look at Re:Zero as an example, each time the protagonist got killed, an alternate universe was left behind with everybody picking up whatever was left after he died each time.

I really like your emphasis on the aftermath. Exploring the emotional, social, and specifically bureaucratic consequences makes it far harder for a story to drift into romanticization. And I never knew Re:Zero was like what you said! I thought the world just reset without consequence; now I'm intersested in reading it.

 

[Hans.Trondheim]

If a story begins or ends with suicide, whether implied or explicit, does it risk romanticizing it?

I struggle with stories where death is the only way of salvation or for a new beginning, like when a protagonist committed suicide and then reincarnated into a better world or with a better start. Or a depressing protagonist, a tragic protagonist, finds peace at the end of the story through death, and not just theprotagonist, but other characters too.

But I did like how tragedy and depression were shown in such stories.

Maybe it’s just me being oversensitive, but it can feel uncomfortable, as if suffering can only be rewarded through escape rather than confrontation. But of course, I believe stories should have creative freedom. Though it made me remember what I study in art philosophy: does the art reflect the maker's morality? Maybe this thread is a bit similar to OtherSlater's thread about endorsement. When does storytelling cross from depicting into endorsing it?

As a reader, what do you think? Should stories approach this more responsibly, or is it okay with just a precaution on the novel's description? Tbh, I kind of like stories with themes like suicide, or rather revolving around it without the part I said above. Any recommendations?

P.s; I'm sorry for my ignorance if this isn't the right section thread.

My students read my story, so I'm careful of depicting suicide and hopelessness in those. You know my life story; I don't want to lose students to suicide again.

 

[Mellohwa]

My students read my story, so I'm careful of depicting suicide and hopelessness in those. You know my life story; I don't want to lose students to suicide again.

Yeah, that is nice, Hans. They’re lucky to have someone looking out for them like that.

Thank you, guys. I really appreciate how everyone has been thoughtful here.

 

[Anonjohn20]

does it risk romanticizing it?

Sort of. People who are mentally healthy can safely consume that kind of media, but if a person's mind is... vulnerable... then depictions of suicide in fiction can, for some reason, inspire them to do it if they were already considering it.

 

[Mellohwa]

Sort of. People who are mentally healthy can safely consume that kind of media, but if a person's mind is... vulnerable... then depictions of suicide in fiction can, for some reason, inspire them to do it if they were already considering it.

 

[TinaMigarlo]

If we, as writers. refrain from writing *anything* that *anyone* would file a complaint against? We would have precious little left to write about. i would say we could write recipe books, but... there would be complaints from the "carbs" people. No red meat, god forbid. Sugar, oil. MIlk, eggs, bacon... all get complaints. Hell, can't even write recipe books if all complaints are censored.

Its in my synopsis, murder and suicide are dealt with in the text. I labeled it "adult", and it got among other tags a suicide tag.

I do feel bad for people that have some kind of bad issues, I really do.
ain't got nothing to do with my book.
and I don't glorify suicide, trust me. It ruined everyone's day in the book.
couple books later, the two MC's are *still* dealing with it.