What makes someone a person?

[Santaisblue]

So right now I am working on a magic system based around a creature that lets you sacrifice something about yourself (physical, mental, emotional, etc) and gain in return a metaphysical ability that "replaces" what you lost. For instance, if you give up your vision, your eyes would wither away, but you could get future sight or the ability to detect life in a large area around you, or if you give up your ability to walk, you might get flight or teleportation. The main idea is to obtain something that replaces what you lost, but still feels incomplete. Even if you gain future sight and can safely avoid danger as though you could see (and more), you still can't experience a beautiful sunset or the warm smile someone gives you after you've helped them.

To get to the title question, my idea for the main antagonist to be someone who offers the creature "everything that makes me human," and I wanted to see if anyone has suggestions for what type of change would happen (It can be in a physical, ability, or even personality way). My current idea is that they will turn into something like a windigo-esque creature with an ability to phase through reality. I got the idea from the fact that windigos tend to be a monsterified person who ignores society and eats a person, and people enjoy the process of something more than the end result, so a power that just takes you somewhere would eliminate the joy of travel or discovery. Any ideas would help!

 

[LeilaniOtter]

It's a really good concept you have brewing there!

Now, there's another way to look at this though. You're saying someone wants to offer "everything that makes me human". This COULD be a little difficult to get right, but hear me out. *^^*

What makes us human as apart from animals, I imagine, or what classifies us as only human and nothing else? Because most animals have senses, or sight, or hearing, etc. Most have appendages, brains, innards, etc. What makes us human isn't necessarily the easiest thing to figure out. And the fun part would be carrying on a conversation with this creature to actually agree (or disagree) on what would make the grantee human. it could be a fun little comedy segment, to be sure. ?

 

[Santaisblue]

It's a really good concept you have brewing there!

Now, there's another way to look at this though. You're saying someone wants to offer "everything that makes me human". This COULD be a little difficult to get right, but hear me out. *^^*

What makes us human as apart from animals, I imagine, or what classifies us as only human and nothing else? Because most animals have senses, or sight, or hearing, etc. Most have appendages, brains, innards, etc. What makes us human isn't necessarily the easiest thing to figure out. And the fun part would be carrying on a conversation with this creature to actually agree (or disagree) on what would make the grantee human. it could be a fun little comedy segment, to be sure. ?

The situation I'm hoping to make will be more tragic than comedic, but your idea is a good one that I will keep in mind.

 

[Tempokai]

Reasoning, critical thinking, consciousness, bipedal movement, ability to say no and resist (willpower), free will that is not premeditated by instincts, and whatever else I forgot.

Other animals have this too, but not in large amount like humans, humans have it due to having bigger brains that can accommodate these things into one package. If these are removed, the humans are no different from lowest denomination of mammals.

 

[ElijahRyne]

So right now I am working on a magic system based around a creature that lets you sacrifice something about yourself (physical, mental, emotional, etc) and gain in return a metaphysical ability that "replaces" what you lost. For instance, if you give up your vision, your eyes would wither away, but you could get future sight or the ability to detect life in a large area around you, or if you give up your ability to walk, you might get flight or teleportation. The main idea is to obtain something that replaces what you lost, but still feels incomplete. Even if you gain future sight and can safely avoid danger as though you could see (and more), you still can't experience a beautiful sunset or the warm smile someone gives you after you've helped them.

To get to the title question, my idea for the main antagonist to be someone who offers the creature "everything that makes me human," and I wanted to see if anyone has suggestions for what type of change would happen (It can be in a physical, ability, or even personality way). My current idea is that they will turn into something like a windigo-esque creature with an ability to phase through reality. I got the idea from the fact that windigos tend to be a monsterified person who ignores society and eats a person, and people enjoy the process of something more than the end result, so a power that just takes you somewhere would eliminate the joy of travel or discovery. Any ideas would help!

Not a philosopher, but personhood has at least 2 dimensions to it. The self and the communal. If you consider yourself a person you have fulfilled at least one dimension of personhood, but if no one else considers you to be a person, then are you?

So does the beast takes away what the antagonist considers to make themselves a human, and then makes it impossible for others to consider them human? Does it just take away the self’s conception of what it means to be human and not the communal? Does it leave that but make it so the antagonist can never fulfill what the antagonist believes makes a human? Does it make the antagonist a non human in the communal aspect and leave the antagonist feeling human? All questions that I cannot answer for you.

 

[JayMark]

It's going to be a hard character to write if they lose 'everything' that makes them human.

But cool idea, Imma sucker for this kind of thought experiment.

 

[Santaisblue]

Not a philosopher, but personhood has at least 2 dimensions to it. The self and the communal. If you consider yourself a person you have fulfilled at least one dimension of personhood, but if no one else considers you to be a person, then are you?

So does the beast takes away what the antagonist considers to make themselves a human, and then makes it impossible for others to consider them human? Does it just take away the self’s conception of what it means to be human and not the communal? Does it leave that but make it so the antagonist can never fulfill what the antagonist believes makes a human“ Does it make the antagonist a non human in the communal aspect and leave the antagonist feeling human? All questions that I cannot answer for you.

ooooo I really like this! Im definitely using this as part of the character.

 

[LeilaniOtter]

The situation I'm hoping to make will be more tragic than comedic, but your idea is a good one that I will keep in mind.

Sometimes, I really wonder about it. You open up a cavalcade of interesting questions for readers by trying to ascertain "what makes humans human". ?

 

[CharlesEBrown]

So right now I am working on a magic system based around a creature that lets you sacrifice something about yourself (physical, mental, emotional, etc) and gain in return a metaphysical ability that "replaces" what you lost. For instance, if you give up your vision, your eyes would wither away, but you could get future sight or the ability to detect life in a large area around you, or if you give up your ability to walk, you might get flight or teleportation. The main idea is to obtain something that replaces what you lost, but still feels incomplete. Even if you gain future sight and can safely avoid danger as though you could see (and more), you still can't experience a beautiful sunset or the warm smile someone gives you after you've helped them.

To get to the title question, my idea for the main antagonist to be someone who offers the creature "everything that makes me human," and I wanted to see if anyone has suggestions for what type of change would happen (It can be in a physical, ability, or even personality way). My current idea is that they will turn into something like a windigo-esque creature with an ability to phase through reality. I got the idea from the fact that windigos tend to be a monsterified person who ignores society and eats a person, and people enjoy the process of something more than the end result, so a power that just takes you somewhere would eliminate the joy of travel or discovery. Any ideas would help!

That is not strictly a wendigo - or at least not one of the common folklore/mythology forms.
There are four slightly different mythological wendigo:
1) A cannibal giant - once human, now turned into a monster. Sometimes they can revert to a human appearance, sometimes not. There is crossover with the second type here too...
2) A person possessed by a Wendigo spirit - the spirit can enter then at any time, turning them into the cannibal (which is not always a giant in this version), but only entered them in the first place because they engaged in cannibalism, either as part of a ritual, as a means of survival or out of morbid curiosity.
3) A person who finds their guardian spirit to BE Wendigo - these are usually the most powerful of shamans, but sometimes the spirit takes over and they are literal human monsters.
4) The spirit itself, which may be a singular creature or a class of creatures (the lore is unclear) - it has no power unless it becomes the guardian spirit or possesses someone.

On the question of "what is a person" - a "person" is something that interacts in some way with another "person." Not all rocks are people, but some are... the one you trip over is a person, the one you just notice in passing is not. If he sacrificed everything that made him a PERSON he would lose the ability to interact with others, become a disembodied spirit, forever trapped on the outside, only ever able to observe.
What makes a HUMAN is the ability to interact on a rational level with other humans - the first two types of wendigo are people losing their humanity (the first type due to a self-inflicted curse, the second type due to outside forces) but who (in most cases) have not yet fully lost it (and have become addicted to the taste of human flesh). The mental transformation would be to a pure narcissistic personality - a person motivated first by "what is in it for me?" and second by "I want it NOW!" - they are (usually) smart enough to not be too outrageous in front of witnesses, but leave misery (or death) in their wake, the only check to their behavior being "if I'm caught, I won't be able to do more."
A physical change would either be towards the immaterial, losing that ability to interact, or towards the bestial, losing the ability to "hide in plain sight."

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Sperm and egg.

 

[ShrimpShady]

From a biological point of view, humans are exceptional not necessarily in attributes but in the extent of those attributes, so identifying precise cut off points for humanity is a bit hard

Based on that, my suggestion for the defining trait of humanity is free will (or at least the presumption of free will). In other words, the ability to make choices and to understand that a different choice could've been made. A person stripped of their humanity or personhood would then operate purely on instinct, doing just enough to preserve the self and fulfill momentary needs. Without conscious choices and the ability to reflect on them, I assume they also wouldn't be able to form an identity. What you get then is basically a human jellyfish. Not a very interesting idea for a character though.

You've presented a really cool concept for a story though

 

[georgelee5786]

The ability to goon

 

[DeepWater]

The ability to goon

Pretty much every mammal from chimpanzees to dolphins goon

 

[Cipiteca396]

"everything that makes me human"

That's rough because the word "human" improperly defines multiple different concepts.

Is it a member of the human species (homo sapiens), which would mean the result is a demon, elf, dwarf, dog, fish, or some other non-human?

Is it a humane individual, someone who strives towards the ideals of humanity? Then the result is a normal person, but without compassion, empathy or curiosity.

Is it a person, which is different than a homo sapiens but there aren't any other examples so just take my word for it? Then the result is an inanimate object or being- one incapable of thinking or feeling, and yet still [exist]ing. Like the things we call AI that aren't really AI.

Since it's specifically sacrificing everything that makes them human, then it would be alright to delete them from existence take away everything that defines them as human. So no body, no mind, no personality.

However, since it would be replacing it with something incomplete, you get the typical soul eating demon, that wants to take other people's minds to try and remember what it's like to be human. It does so naturally, not out of greed or curiosity even hunger. It would not be a good antagonist though...

 

[LeilaniOtter]

From a biological point of view, humans are exceptional not necessarily in attributes but in the extent of those attributes, so identifying precise cut off points for humanity is a bit hard

Based on that, my suggestion for the defining trait of humanity is free will (or at least the presumption of free will). In other words, the ability to make choices and to understand that a different choice could've been made. A person stripped of their humanity or personhood would then operate purely on instinct, doing just enough to preserve the self and fulfill momentary needs. Without conscious choices and the ability to reflect on them, I assume they also wouldn't be able to form an identity. What you get then is basically a human jellyfish. Not a very interesting idea for a character though.

You've presented a really cool concept for a story though

So what you're saying is that the protagonist has only to give up free will in order to receive the gift - but then the paradox would be if they no longer have free will, how would they be able to use their bestowed gift? ? ?

 

[RepresentingCaution]

Recognition and care for other persons, just like a nation must be recognized by other nations. Also, I don't believe that humans are all that special in the animal kingdom. I see personhood in other animals all the time.

 

[RepresentingDesire]

I love the concept and hope you execute it right.

To get to the title question, my idea for the main antagonist to be someone who offers the creature "everything that makes me human," and I wanted to see if anyone has suggestions for what type of change would happen (It can be in a physical, ability, or even personality way).

Some would say values are what makes one human but that's stupid because values have no effect on which species you are and bio essentialism is just taken to a unreasonable degree. Not that some values aren't very good to possess for a human.

What is a human? An animal, so to be not human you have just to alter every specific trait from a human, on a surface level it's high intelligence, highly developed sound based communication, the structure of our appendages (how our toeas and fingers are positioned) and the heavy lack of hair/fur. That are the things that differentiate a human from the nearest related animal in very rough detail.

just because I saw it here, free will is a very complicated idea because it tends to violate how the universe functions, libertarian free will just straight out makes no sense and other forms of free will tend to as well violate causality. Without further information either random quark behavior or the way the universe was created control our action due to the existence of causality, either way it would be deterministic free will. But under ever form of free will would it not be something special that only humans process, regardless of other animal other apes like chimpanzee do exist that have shown similar behaviour, like self reflection and strategy creating.

Furthermore the person in question should like take a basic economics course and learn about needs, like the maslow pyramid, because basic needs like food and water are important (but at least for many) socialisation and self improvement are as well needs.

My current idea is that they will turn into something like a windigo-esque creature with an ability to phase through reality.

I would make the wendigo a plant or mushroom creature just so the protagonist stops being an animal which a human is, it might not be that defining like the others I have listed but it would create an more inhuman effect. Furthermore some more appendages than four would be need as well, the "appendages" could be made out of tendrils which would create a more inhuman creature for many obvious reasons. It should have as well communicate like mushrooms or plants, there is so much Variety any non-sound communication should exist in both.

Just to say it as well the protagonist mustn't necessarily become hostile, many animals are not hostile against humans, house spiders tend to just go out of the way of people, sharks only accidentally attack people, there are some tamed herbivores that tend to just be peaceful and of course dogs can work with or for humans. I personally hope it won't be as simple as protagonist now has to kill humans, I would personally find a neutral attitude the most interesting where the protagonist can work for and against humans depending on the situation.

Of course this implies at least some form of intelligence which as I said or implied twice before is not really a human only trait, theoretically the protagonist could be even more intelligent than the average human because it would as well be inhuman, a different expression of intelligence would be neat because intelligence takes different forms and this being reflected in the way of thought would be interesting. The same is true for emotions, I think a different expression of emotions than humans would be interesting, like as an example, smiling is considered only among humans a sign of friendliness, most other animals consider it a sign of aggression.

 

[LeilaniOtter]

Recognition and care for other persons, just like a nation must be recognized by other nations. Also, I don't believe that humans are all that special in the animal kingdom. I see personhood in other animals all the time.

Exactly.
Man lifted itself above the animals only because it's mentioned in the holy bible that it should be so.
But there is absolutely no proof that humans were ever supposed to hold dominion over the animals.
I'm guessing our prehistoric beasts had a real problem with that. ?

 

[georgelee5786]

Pretty much every mammal from chimpanzees to dolphins goon

Did I stutter?

 

[istryj]

“Man is the sum total of everything he has done, wishes to do or not to do, and wishes he hadn't done, or hadn't.”
Roger Zelazny.,“This Moment of the Storm”