Symbolism and motif questions for everyone.

[Tempokai]

Ordinary writers don't think about symbolism that much when writing, and yet even the veteran critics can find it in those ordinary writer's writings.

Master storytellers use symbolism deliberately, and yet even the critics can't find what that symbolism in their writing really means.

Some people can overthink those symbols, like with Daniel Mullins and his games, connecting them into one coherent theme, but some can do exactly that and then be clueless that their story has symbolism. Why is that? What makes the symbolism stick?

Same with the motif. In the loose terms, it's a repetition of symbols in different places in the same story, in different contexts. For example, Undertale is praised for reocurring motifs, and yet no one says that it's repetitive and boring. Why it's that?

So, here are the questions:

1. What is symbolism for you, and as a reader, do you seek it? And, as a writer, do you seek to implement them into the story? Why symbolism is important, and yet overlooked for plot/character analysis?

2. How symbolism works in the stories, and why great stories always have them? Why your English teacher berated you for not finding symbolism under the blue curtains? What makes symbolism different from plot?

3. If motif is just symbolism repetition, what makes it motif? What makes the symbolism different from the motif when they are coming from the same metaphorical well? Why ordinary people can't see motif and yet feel it?

I'll answer few days later on what I think. I really want to know about what other readers and writers think because it has many interpretations of it, and most of them are often valid.

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

Ordinary writers don't think about symbolism that much when writing, and yet even the veteran critics can find it in those ordinary writer's writings.

Master storytellers use symbolism deliberately, and yet even the critics can't find what that symbolism in their writing really means.

Some people can overthink those symbols, like with Daniel Mullins and his games, connecting them into one coherent theme, but some can do exactly that and then be clueless that their story has symbolism. Why is that? What makes the symbolism stick?

Same with the motif. In the loose terms, it's a repetition of symbols in different places in the same story, in different contexts. For example, Undertale is praised for reocurring motifs, and yet no one says that it's repetitive and boring. Why it's that?

So, here are the questions:

1. What is symbolism for you, and as a reader, do you seek it? And, as a writer, do you seek to implement them into the story? Why symbolism is important, and yet overlooked for plot/character analysis?

2. How symbolism works in the stories, and why great stories always have them? Why your English teacher berated you for not finding symbolism under the blue curtains? What makes symbolism different from plot?

3. If motif is just symbolism repetition, what makes it motif? What makes the symbolism different from the motif when they are coming from the same metaphorical well? Why ordinary people can't see motif and yet feel it?

I'll answer few days later on what I think. I really want to know about what other readers and writers think because it has many interpretations of it, and most of them are often valid.

? =

 

[LilRora]

Symbolism is troublesome to show in a written because of the constraints of the medium. It's usually easier to show in a manga or in video, but there's plenty in writing as well if we're don't restrict ourselves to objects. I can't answer your questions exactly because I think this shouldn't be split this much.

To me, symbolism is the broad connection between identity and appearance or behavior. The simplest form are things like logos and slogans, but depending how we see it, this may be far, far more comprehensive - even something as trivial as clothing or habits have elements of symbolism. As an example, cloaks are an element commonly associated with rogues and assassins in fantasy media. This is also a symbol, although not a specific, identifying element most commonly recognized symbols are, and instead an association rooted deeper in our media as a whole.

The reason why it is important is that it provides context clues, which are extremely important for immersion and our understanding of the world. Symbolism serves as a contextual base we use to build stories, borrowing and solidifying certain elements while adding our own interpretations and ideas that make the worldbuilding and plot unique.

~1. I seek stories that go beyond the established symbols in our media. As a writer, I also try to create a story that is unique in this regard. There are, however, some elements that I have to borrow, as trying to create a world by myself that is completely dissimilar to any in our media is far, far too much work. It's overlooked for plot/character analysis because we treat it as a given and neglect to consider what we expect to be there, instead focusing on what's different.

~2. I don't think it's right to say that great stories have symbolism. Every story either uses existing symbols or creates its own. What sets great stories apart is that they are written well enough to create believable symbols in its own worldbuilding and plot. A couple of examples I can mention is Star Wars and their lightsabers - immediately recognizable to anyone distantly familiar with the series - including the very specific motion and sound of an ignited lightsaber. The most important aspect here is the impression, the effect it has on the reader, which boils down to writing a story with appropriate tension. Consistent worldbuilding is also important, but secondary.

Symbolism can be an element of plot, but doesn't have to. Both are separate things that may intersect in specific situations.

3. Motif comes about thanks to consistency. The reason why lightabers are as recognizable as they are is not because they are repeatedly used in the story, but because they have a specific place in it, and are consistently used in a specific context by a limited group of characters.

 

[Bald-san]

Ordinary writers don't think about symbolism that much when writing, and yet even the veteran critics can find it in those ordinary writer's writings.

Master storytellers use symbolism deliberately, and yet even the critics can't find what that symbolism in their writing really means.

Some people can overthink those symbols, like with Daniel Mullins and his games, connecting them into one coherent theme, but some can do exactly that and then be clueless that their story has symbolism. Why is that? What makes the symbolism stick?

Same with the motif. In the loose terms, it's a repetition of symbols in different places in the same story, in different contexts. For example, Undertale is praised for reocurring motifs, and yet no one says that it's repetitive and boring. Why it's that?

So, here are the questions:

1. What is symbolism for you, and as a reader, do you seek it? And, as a writer, do you seek to implement them into the story? Why symbolism is important, and yet overlooked for plot/character analysis?

2. How symbolism works in the stories, and why great stories always have them? Why your English teacher berated you for not finding symbolism under the blue curtains? What makes symbolism different from plot?

3. If motif is just symbolism repetition, what makes it motif? What makes the symbolism different from the motif when they are coming from the same metaphorical well? Why ordinary people can't see motif and yet feel it?

I'll answer few days later on what I think. I really want to know about what other readers and writers think because it has many interpretations of it, and most of them are often valid.

I don't think about symbolism at all. Or at least my symbolism are shallow, like my Mc reflects my desire to be good at anything I do or the 'strongest human' in my verse being named after one of the mythical heroes in my province to reflect my hometown. I can't be bothered by Lord of the Mysteries level of symbolisms

 

[Corty]

What is symbolism for you

Pretentious nothingburger.

as a reader, do you seek it?

No. I am reading a book, not a poem. I am not sniffing my own farts here, I'm not Californian.

as a writer, do you seek to implement them into the story?

Never.

Why symbolism is important, and yet overlooked for plot/character analysis?

It isn't important. It's pretentious.

How symbolism works in the stories, and why great stories always have them? Why your English teacher berated you for not finding symbolism under the blue curtains? What makes symbolism different from plot?

Don't care, it's worthless.

If motif is just symbolism repetition, what makes it motif? What makes the symbolism different from the motif when they are coming from the same metaphorical well? Why ordinary people can't see motif and yet feel it?

This is my main problem with symbolism bullshit.

Ordinary people? Not ordinary people? What is this elitist bullshit? Bah.

 

[RepresentingDesire]

Well I will just shortly say what I consider to be symbolism, symbolism has always an symbol which can be anything that is perceivable and that has an idea or even meme attached to it, language is an easy example of giant amount of symbols, the word "tree" has nothing to do with an actual tree, you have just been socialized to associate both.

1. What is symbolism for you, and as a reader, do you seek it? And, as a writer, do you seek to implement them into the story? Why symbolism is important, and yet overlooked for plot/character analysis?

As a reader I adore it, to me it is often even more important than the characters because the meaning behind symbols will always outlife the symbols.

2. How symbolism works in the stories, and why great stories always have them? Why your English teacher berated you for not finding symbolism under the blue curtains? What makes symbolism different from plot?

It adds depth to a story by making it possible to enhance the plot by adding details which can completely change the perception of the plot or simply add detail.

The teacher can see everywhere meaning due to the death of the author which includes the intended symbolism, which is as well the difference to the plot because symbols are inherently a matter of interpretation, the plot in as what is currently happening is often more obvious.

3. If motif is just symbolism repetition, what makes it motif? What makes the symbolism different from the motif when they are coming from the same metaphorical well? Why ordinary people can't see motif and yet feel it?

Well motif is just symbolism repetition or multiple symbolism that combine into a message, the difference is the order not all symbolism has a motif but all motifs are based on symbols. Normal people can not see motifs because it takes an understanding of most symbols but on a casual watch you can see some symbols and already put them together.

 

[Deleted member 206441]

Is this different from subtext?

Coz in my store the only things i trade are allegories, metaphores, semiotics and subtext...

 

[Tempokai]

Is this different from subtext?

Coz in my store the only things i trade are allegories, metaphores, semiotics and subtext...

Nope, not at all. I'll give a hint; subtext is a form of symbolism when it's done right. It's one way of delivering symbolism and motif. I want to know what you think about these.

 

[Deleted member 206441]

I like to use/write them coz it's fun, I think it adds depth, and usually there is a timeless quality to them.

The sense that people could be arguing about a catalytic converter but it's really about how much them love each other, or it could be a war but it's really about the problem of "Small evils" in a complex system that create big problems or even sever moral injustices.

As reader, like to see it, and it is built in for me to spot them.. coz of... work stuff, but there is also like the... intent of the author thing. With part of me feel like I need to ignore the question "am i readin into it too much".
Because of the whole Barthes "death of the author" thing and the post-structuralism literary theory wishy washy stuff.

So I tried not to think about author intent, just enjoying it when it happens.

 

[HisDivineShadow]

Let’s write an essay on the topic: Symbolism as a means of sublimating the author’s psycho-emotional energy.
?

 

[AmbreaTaddy]

As a reader, I like when the symbolism is not pretentious, and is easy to pick up on and understand without being explained. For exemple, there was one novel I read where there was a snake bracelet on a woman's arm. She was described as kind, but everytime she appeared there would be a snake somewhere. Later we learn that she is a bad person spreading rumors, and the snake symbolism makes total sense and was foreshadowing for the reveal.

As a writer, I don't really like symbolism because I don't know how to properly implement it without being 'in your face'. It's hard to do it. I much prefer motifs that are subtle but understandable. For exemple, one or two times at the beginning of the story, I mentionned that the heroine put a strand of hair behind her ear when she is uncomfortable or embarrassed. Then, I didn't say it no more, but there were times when you would subtly see her put a strand of hair behind her ear, giving a hint to how she truly felt in that moment. It can work with everything : Nicknames that are used until they aren't, giving a sense of unease, or a symbol that appear a few times and gives a hint to the story

 

[istryj]

1. What is symbolism for you, and as a reader, do you seek it? And, as a writer, do you seek to implement them into the story? Why symbolism is important, and yet overlooked for plot/character analysis?

2. How symbolism works in the stories, and why great stories always have them? Why your English teacher berated you for not finding symbolism under the blue curtains? What makes symbolism different from plot?

3. If motif is just symbolism repetition, what makes it motif? What makes the symbolism different from the motif when they are coming from the same metaphorical well? Why ordinary people can't see motif and yet feel it?

I'll answer few days later on what I think. I really want to know about what other readers and writers think because it has many interpretations of it, and most of them are often valid.

Heh-heh, my condition compels me to see symbols and connections everywhere — and to create my own as well. Though what I love most are jokes with double meanings... too bad so few people understand them.
I used to be annoyed by all those overanalyzed discussions about "blue curtains" — they always felt so contrived. But now I think maybe the teacher was actually trying to induce in students a condition similar to mine.


Thinking about symbolism, hidden meaning, and hidden intent, I came to the conclusion that most authors use what I call a kind of "black box" mechanism: they show what goes in and what comes out, while the curious reader fills in the middle — and gets satisfaction from doing so.
Most readers, however, find such works boring or confusing, because they don’t like thinking for themselves. But they do love critics’ reviews that neatly explain everything for them.


I hope my post is interesting to you. I don’t have a humanities background, so it’s hard for me to talk about things I’m used to just thinking about — not discussing with others.
Also, I feel kind of bad for the chatGPT. This must’ve been a nightmare to translate.
P.S.I can't help but notice that it's precisely in the pursuit of a wider audience that the plot often ends up being chopped into easily digestible, reflective symbols that require little mental effort. Like commedia dell'arte.
I suppose I’ve just stated the obvious.

 

[just_darkjazz]

1. What is symbolism for you, and as a reader, do you seek it? And, as a writer, do you seek to implement them into the story? Why symbolism is important, and yet overlooked for plot/character analysis?

Symbolism makes for really powerful characterization, in my opinion. I have all kinds of issues in my life. Characters often say they have the same issues. Most times they don't because the writer doesn't portray them right, but that's a story for another time. It's hard for me to relate with those characters. It's much easier when they are shown having said issues, and symbolism is an especially strong way to show that because you kinda have to piece it together because the author doesn't give the full picture.

As for seeking it, yes and no. Reading is really hard for me, I have memory retention issues and very rarely I can remember earlier scenes to examine them in hindsight. Lots of symbolism goes over my head as a result, unless I re-read a work multiple times which doesn't really happen. At the same time I really enjoy it when I catch something.

As a writer, I do chase after symbolism. My current serial is poor in it, all kinds of subtext really. It's not much of an introspective workm and its not like symbolism has no place in it, its just hard for me to facilitate it. And I'm bad at writing, also. I'm also working on a novel, that is a much more cerebral story rife with symbols.

As for why I find symbolism to be important, I just love it when my effort to engage with a piece of work beyond the surface level is rewarded. I love deep stories, thought provoking stories, all kinds of stories that invite you to put effort in them. As good as a shallow story may be, it will never be as gratifying to read as a deep one for me. As for why its overlooked, this might be a hot take but I believe its mostly because readers are lazy. Thinking is hard, people don't want to do it. And as we enter the slop era of the internet with the TikToks and the brainrot and the endless layers of irony and anti intellectualism I feel like its gonna become rarer and rarer.

2. How symbolism works in the stories, and why great stories always have them? Why your English teacher berated you for not finding symbolism under the blue curtains? What makes symbolism different from plot?

As I mentioned above, symbolism works by inviting you to think. It's especially interesting because every human is a singularity. We consist of an innumberable amount of experiences, environmental and societal factors and sheer, dumb luck. No matter how similar two people can be, they can never be the same. And as a result they don't get the same things out of art. Symbolism exists in everything and in nothing, no matter how much intention an author has and how much effort they put into symbolising something with something else if the reader can't draw the same paralel between them. Oftentimes the reader draws their own paralel, sometimes even antithetical to the author's. That's the magic of art. Anything can be anything, as long as you put in the effort to think about it. In that sense I don't believe that great stories always have symbolism, or even if the two are connected. I believe that it appears that great stories are rife with symbolism because they have been thought over countless times, by countless people.

As for why English teachers berate students for not finding symbolism, it's because that that's what the point of the class is. It tries to teach you to think. The blue curtains can just be blue curtains, but they don't have to be. They can be anything, (again) as long as you think about them. And also most school systems are hot garbage and teachers often suck, but that's another story for another time.

I don't believe that symbolism is different from the plot. It can be the plot, it can be complimentary to the plot, it can even add to it and re enforce it. Symbols can foreshadow events, explain characters' choices and motivations, provide context or recontextualise, and so on. I dont think symbolism is a magic trick that makes stories better, but I believe its a tool every author should have in their toolbox.

3. If motif is just symbolism repetition, what makes it motif? What makes the symbolism different from the motif when they are coming from the same metaphorical well? Why ordinary people can't see motif and yet feel it?

I will admit I dont quite understand what a motif is. As for why they can be felt while not nescsarily being seen, I think biology plays a big part in it. Humans are monsters in pattern recognition, feeling a motif is the same as your caveman ancestor being able to tell a tiger is hiding in the tall grass.

I love this thread, I rarely get to share thoughts I've had especially about literature and storytelling.

 

[JayMark]

1. What is symbolism for you, and as a reader, do you seek it? And, as a writer, do you seek to implement them into the story? Why symbolism is important, and yet overlooked for plot/character analysis?

I don't seek it. I don't seek to implement anything too deep into my work. It should come naturally in the narrative. Though I have noticed symbolic items upon editing and have experimented with more intentional symbolism about the world and characters I'm working with.

I tend to symbolize through avoiding symbolism and then when something is symbolic it can hopefully have that deeper meaning that reflects something 'profound' about character, the world, or the plot that may hit the attentive reader with a realization or even better, reinforce a them undercurrent without having the reader think about it directly.

I'd love to think I was that skilled, but I'm actually just a know-nothing hack who wants to write the next great classic.

So dream scenes tend to become symbolic because dream spaces exist to help people navigate real world problems. And I can scream at my readers that this is symbolic of some shit.

2. How symbolism works in the stories, and why great stories always have them? Why your English teacher berated you for not finding symbolism under the blue curtains? What makes symbolism different from plot?

First question is answered indirectly elsewhere.
Because English teachers are often bullshitters.
Not everything is symbolic nor should it be, that's just dumb bull shit.
Symbolism often, not always, comes from greater message the author is attempting to express as subtly as possible. It reflects the place, time, and intent of the author but if done skillfully does not detract from the story. Sometimes it comes as something the author is trying to say about the characters or even themselves.
It should never be overt. IMO
It should never be pretentious. IMO
It should never be in the way. IMO

Symbolism is something to spice plot and character development. Plot is the series of events that lead to the grave, hence plot.

3. If motif is just symbolism repetition, what makes it motif? What makes the symbolism different from the motif when they are coming from the same metaphorical well? Why ordinary people can't see motif and yet feel it?

Yeah, I don't understand this question. Moo. I'll spitball.

Would a spice metaphor work, no spice and the work is bland but all symbolism everywhere and you'll choke to death on spice?

I would think of motif as more of a world building theme. I'm not such a skilled writer that I'm always under full control of the motif so it just has to come internally, sometimes in bursts, sometimes through trial and error. I had my default way of writing when I was young and stuck to that because it worked and I enjoyed the scene I wrote. Now I'm experimenting with shifts in tone, word constructions, and methodolgy for scenes of different purpose but always making sure that I still ENJOY what I've written, can UNDERSTAND it, and have sense of how, where, and why I shifted a technique to fit my 'motif'.

Anyone who reads well can sense the motif and have an idea what it is. It doesn't have to be perfect. This is something vague for a reason. Once it is given overly defined structure it's killed. I don't know, like a quantum particle being observed, once you define it too rigidly it's gone. I'm sleepy.

Pretentious nothingburger. No. I am reading a book, not a poem. I am not sniffing my own farts here, I'm not Californian. Never. It isn't important. It's pretentious.
Don't care, it's worthless. This is my main problem with symbolism bullshit. Ordinary people? Not ordinary people? What is this elitist bullshit? Bah.

Someone is jaded by their 400 level lit classes. The stuff they try to pass for symbolism in Uni is exactly as you say. It's bloated over reach of academic exercise to make students feel awed and professors feel like the smartest person in the room. Then students go off and attempt to stuff their works with 'deep meaning' and end up writing pretentious word bloated pap nobody wants to read outside of college.

Or worse, they do the fake symbolism dance. Every long item represents a phallic object, every time a rat appears it means X, the ghoulash is a symbol for racism, and on and on it goes. We can twist any work through symbolism to make it mean whatever we want. But they often force meaning or 'depth' when the answer often is the thing just fucking exists. And that sucks.

I once told a prof that I didn't think a certain object had deeper meaning than needing to be there for the scene to work, that not everything is symbolic of something else, and got berated. I had to apologize and recognize my ignorance.

Yet, while all this is true. There is still symbolism to be found in the right places and deeper meanings authors are attempting to express in works that are entertaining. Repeated objects, common themes, reccuring character traits, easter eggs and such can add a certain deeper life to story even if their 'deeper' meaning is never explained.

Hell, if readers enjoy your work they'll put symbolism in it for you.

That's why so many analysis videos exist for dumb shit like FNAF. lol jk *If you are FNAF fan I think the game is fine*

 

[CharlesEBrown]

Ordinary writers don't think about symbolism that much when writing, and yet even the veteran critics can find it in those ordinary writer's writings.

Master storytellers use symbolism deliberately, and yet even the critics can't find what that symbolism in their writing really means.

Some people can overthink those symbols, like with Daniel Mullins and his games, connecting them into one coherent theme, but some can do exactly that and then be clueless that their story has symbolism. Why is that? What makes the symbolism stick?

Same with the motif. In the loose terms, it's a repetition of symbols in different places in the same story, in different contexts. For example, Undertale is praised for reocurring motifs, and yet no one says that it's repetitive and boring. Why it's that?

So, here are the questions:

1. What is symbolism for you, and as a reader, do you seek it? And, as a writer, do you seek to implement them into the story? Why symbolism is important, and yet overlooked for plot/character analysis?

Symbolism can be a powerful tool, a crutch, or something that grinds the gears of a story to a screeching halt, depending on how it is handled, and whether it is symbolism I have no emotional attachment to, stuff that fits my personal ethos, or something that goes against it. I do not seek it out usually, because half the time I don't see it, and the other half it just annoys me because the author either is being coy with it, or is beating me over the head with it.

2. How symbolism works in the stories, and why great stories always have them? Why your English teacher berated you for not finding symbolism under the blue curtains? What makes symbolism different from plot?

Great stories do not always have symbolism - or at least not intentional symbolism (there was an interview with C. S. Lewis where he claimed that he had no intention of using symbolism or allegory at all in The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe, but once the "obvious Christian parallels" were pointed out to him after publication, he ran with them in the rest of the Chronicles of Narnia) - and sometimes, when they do, the symbolism is provided by the READER not the AUTHOR, based on their own perceptions.

Heck, during a poetry bit in 12th grade, there were at least three times I was tempted to argue with the teacher about what a poem "meant," but saw the way she verbally eviscerated one student for doing that, and how she praised the ones who came to the same conclusions she did and just avoided answering questions on the subject or on symbolism as much as I could.

3. If motif is just symbolism repetition, what makes it motif? What makes the symbolism different from the motif when they are coming from the same metaphorical well? Why ordinary people can't see motif and yet feel it?

No clue on this one.

 

[Bartun]

Symbolism in my novel is so profound that people can't find it.

 

[JayMark]

Symbolism in my novel is so profound that people can't find it.

It shouldn't be that hard to find your symbolism, it has Nowhere To Run.

 

[AnonUnlimited]

 

[LeilaniOtter]

To me, symbolism is a matter of perspective. What you convey to the readers might hit on different cylinders with different viewpoints; others might not see anything. One of the primary examples I was taught comes from "The Great Gatsby", by F. Scott Fitzgerald, and it's jam-packed with symbolism depicting wealth, power, and the pain of the 1920s. But a lot of people might read the book and not "catch on"; and instead just enjoy the book (or try to enjoy it, I really didn't like it much. ?)

 

[GeppettoNoir]

1. What is symbolism for you, and as a reader, do you seek it? And, as a writer, do you seek to implement them into the story? Why symbolism is important, and yet overlooked for plot/character analysis?

2. How symbolism works in the stories, and why great stories always have them? Why your English teacher berated you for not finding symbolism under the blue curtains? What makes symbolism different from plot?

3. If motif is just symbolism repetition, what makes it motif? What makes the symbolism different from the motif when they are coming from the same metaphorical well? Why ordinary people can't see motif and yet feel it?

1. Difficult question for me because symbolism is in everything to me. Symbolism is that which is. Maybe an echo? I don't seek it out but it stops me when I notice it. Like one might stop to the snap of a twig breaking underfoot. The sound pulses out like sonar, painting it's surroundings with the tantalizing promise of possibility. As for character analysis, I think it's something best used with a light touch. Best if done accidentally. Can otherwise come off as a bit on-the-nose.

2. To me, I genuinely believe that the answer to this can be found in that Jungian territory somewhere between Synchronicity and Collective Consciousness. I think it's the same driving force behind why some things "just work" and other things "just feel right." It's that knowing without knowing, that inability to articulate or communicate a thing on the tip of your tongue that makes symbolism so tantalizing--when done right.

2a. Plot is the driving force of your story. The core. The beginning to end--with the premise being the terrain. The way. The world and the how, where, sometimes why, and with what rules. It's easy to confuse premise over plot.

3. Motif is simply the recurrence of a symbol or a symbol's theme. It can be layered on in multiple ways. Think of the rose on a coat-of-arms. The rose is the symbol. The motif is how it is displayed on armor, banners, in paintings, etc to keep the idea moving through day-to-day life. You can use a symbol once to allude to an event or meaning and leave it at that. Simply using symbolism doesn't have to bind you to any motif.

3a. Why can people see it or not feel it? Back to answer 2. and the whole Jungian thing.


At least that's my understanding/opinion on it all.