What do you guys think about tax (as a concept )

Arkus86

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Some might say taxation is theft, taxes should not exist and whatnot, but those poeple ignore one major issue with that view - without taxes, you would have little to no public infrastructure or services. No asphalt roads, no running water (including the pipes to your home), no firefighters or police, unless you specifically pay for each of those, and from experience we know most people would not pay if they could at all avoid it. Legal system as we know it would not exist either - no real laws, only people who can afford to pay for private security/soldiers, and those wo can't. If there were courts at all, they would be a joke controlled by whoever/whichever company runs them.

Is the system corrupt and inefficient in reality? Absolutely. But without someone taking a mandatory cut to use it on public infrastructire and services, you would be worse off in general.

The government is the only reason that money has value in the first place. Ultimately, it belongs to the state that mints it as legal tender. Other countries don't have to recognize foreign currencies as having value intrinsically, but do so because of the power of the trade partner.
As far as value of money is concerned, it has nothing to do with taxes. Money has value because people agree it does, and governmet could easily be replaced by any private company as a guarantor and issuer of currency.
 

ThrillingHuman

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Taxes are necessary in some way or form while market relations exist
 

BearlyAlive

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There's only two absolutes: Death and taxes. Every civilization outside the hunter-gatherer-stage has or had some form of taxation.
 

Prince_Azmiran_Myrian

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Before paper currency, we used valuable coins, and they did retain their value. Gold, silver, copper, etc could just be smelted and reminted.
The cost of reminting would eat into that value some, but at that point its the raw materials being valued and a currency without a backing governemnt would still lose its power. My principle still stands.
As far as value of money is concerned, it has nothing to do with taxes. Money has value because people agree it does, and governmet could easily be replaced by any private company as a guarantor and issuer of currency.
You do realize that is a huge conflict of interest to place on a single business? Looks at federal reserve.

Besides, any company large enough to guarantee a currency is essentially already run like a type of government anyway. So that's a government by another name.
 

xedale

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If a government were to suddenly disappear, do you think that its money would have any actual value on its own?
Money has value as long as people keep using it. And the only thing stopping people from coming together and creating their own monetary systems is, well, the government.
Libertarians also like having water treatment plants, public schools, and emergency rooms around, but will not point at a working model of society without taxes but with water treatment plants, public schools, and emergency rooms.
The obvious alternative to taxation would be people voluntarily choosing to pay for what they use or support.
 
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Taxation in a story can be fun to think about. I like to imagine taxes on goods like vials of human blood. I've never really seen a story talk about the taxes of magical items and such.
 

laccoff_mawning

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You should learn about taxes and taxation in a civics/politics class before you graduate high school
I don't understand why this isn't a thing. You could group basic politics + economy + law into a single mandatory school subject
would be people voluntarily choosing to pay for what they use or support.
Now that's what I call a fantasy story!
 

Rezcore

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Taxation is both Theft and a necessary evil. Until we can find a way to have 100% clarity on how our money is spent, we will never not be shafted. Also, welfare is immoral, it's seems good on paper but breeds dependence
 

Prince_Azmiran_Myrian

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? Even if government collapsed entirely and there was no other government to remint it, it is still a precious metal.
Why would people use precious metals to trade?It would jist become barter at that point. And the everyday person can't do much with just precious metal, poor barter strength.
Besides, a dragoness like me will just take it and turn it into a bed.
 

Anonjohn20

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Why would people use precious metals to trade?It would jist become barter at that point. And the everyday person can't do much with just precious metal, poor barter strength.
That's a great question. What would a precious metal like gold and silver do besides be very malleable, extremely conductive, corrosion resistant, etc.?

It must be a coincidence that all the separate civilizations and cultures around the world chose the exact same metals to trade with.
 

ConansWitchBaby

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Taxes are an obligation if you want to exist within the borders of someones domain. That is what it is at it's core. If you don't want to, go away and get ganked as subhuman trash in the eyes of those still within the domain; as history gladly shows. As much as delusional people would like to argue about owning and not, land with borders and philosophical dribble on basic humanities, no one lives in a vacuum. The stupidly specific counter-arguments mean nothing. And unless there is a heavy shift in the thinking of the populace, it will continue to mean nothing.

For the libertarian talk that popped up, my two cents: Stop it. Stop ignoring that the majority of people are lazy to all fuck and the idealistic world that type of politics wishes for is absurd even in the small scale. Even communism has a better track record compared to the political equivalent of fondling prismatic unicorn shit.
 
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miyoga

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I don't understand why this isn't a thing. You could group basic politics + economy + law into a single mandatory school subject
It is a thing. US graduation requirements (nationwide) require 1 semester of government for graduation. Students in China learn politics starting in, at least, late elementary. I'm also about 95% sure that European nations have something similar where government/civics is a requirement for high school graduation.

Whether or not it is more than a footnote of the course is ultimately up to the individual teacher AND students paying attention to what is said. Before 2010, in my home state in the US, it was also possible to take a personal finance class in high school. The contents of this class? Personal budgeting, personal taxes, home/auto loans and amortization rates...basically everything that any graduate after 2016 has been saying that they never learned and should have been taught in school. Why weren't they? Lack of budget, lack of student interest, or lack of qualified instructor, take your pick.
 

Placeholder

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> Taxes are an obligation if you want to exist within the borders of someones domain.

More it's a social contract with your neighbors that if you have money you're not going to use the publicly funded water and sewers without contributing to that public fund.

> The obvious alternative to taxation would be people voluntarily choosing to pay for what they use or support.

It's obvious but it's also unworkable. You get libertarians mooching public roads, water treatment plants, ERs, fire departments, without paying in.

Ayn Rand's scifi larpers: "I want services from people who went to public K-university but I'm not going to pay taxes."
 

minacia

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I don't really like the mentality behind "taxation is theft". The phrasing behind that slogan seems to imply (by deduction) that "tax evasion = rightful/good", which is a really distorted way of looking at society.

Taxes are an obligation -- an element of the "social contract" that underlies the basis of a person's citizenship/residency in a country.
 

laccoff_mawning

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It is a thing. US graduation requirements (nationwide) require 1 semester of government for graduation. Students in China learn politics starting in, at least, late elementary. I'm also about 95% sure that European nations have something similar where government/civics is a requirement for high school graduation.

Whether or not it is more than a footnote of the course is ultimately up to the individual teacher AND students paying attention to what is said.
Oh. Well, That's interesting. :sweat_smile:

After some research, I think what happens where I live is that the study of it is mandatory, but there isn't a mandatory exam for it.
 

greyblob

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Taxation is theft. do everything within your power to avoid it
 

owotrucked

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The existence of money imply the existence of tax. Originally, money is a logistical tool of war, allowing kings to send armies and mercenaries to control remote regions, where they need to buy their supplies.

You, the king, give coins to the soldiers, and you tell the conquered peasants that they need to give you a certain amount of coins or you'll beat the shit out of them. Thus the peasant loser is forced to sell bread to the motherfuckers who burned and ransacked his land.

At the same time, it gives worth to the soldier's salary and justify risking their life on the battlefield.

Paying tax is a bit like giving the stick to your king so he can beat you up with it.

The social services such as fire department, hospitals, and security enforcers are hostages/pretexts for taxes, because:
1. A ruler need those services anyway, because doing without them means their territory going to shit and producing less value. What's the point of owning a house and build a family if it's gonna burn? What's the point of working hard if you just get robbed?
2. When you transpose money to anything else but military schemes, it creates the "cobra effect". It's about a story where a city wanted to get rid of cobra and gave a bounty for every snake caught. Instead of erasing the snake problem, people just bred cobra to get the bounties. To generalize it, money has a side effect of making people do anything but actual work: it's better to create problems and solve them, than actually tackle unresolved challenges. If there's a problem, it's better to be paid to treat the symptoms, than to solve the root cause that justify your pay. Public institutions are incentivized to go deficit and be wasteful to justify increasing budget. You can change internet provider if one fails to satisfy your requirements. Can you fire a policeman and hire another if you feel the street should be safer?

Like @Tempokai said, it's all about trust. I would even say that, originally, all human transaction were based on trust. And the Nobel Prize said that the more trustworthy institutions are, the more prosperous countries become.

If you can walk in your local institutions, and discover that everyone were hired because of family ties than actual competence, then you have the certainty that your taxes are going to shit. This can easily happen from top to bottom, like president's cousin running an institution, and they don't even care to hide it lol

To go back to OP's initial question: Tax is theft, because it's unilateral without giving you any agency on how the money is used, meaning that it could fund actual services just as it could fun corrupt parachutes, and even gambling on gacha has better rates than this
 
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