What’s fun when ‘Reincarnated as a Monster’?

[Arch9CivilReactor]

I initially thought the main draw of reincarnating as a monster was being the monster, but then I started thinking… Rimuru from That Time I Got Reincarnated As A Slime was much more interesting because the world was interesting.

Re:Monster had more faithfully stuck to the gimmick of the MC being a goblin, but the world was so forgettable that it was boring. It’s making me start to see a pattern where an interesting world to bounce of the MC’s predicament is more essential than WHAT the MC actually is.

Though I’m not sure if there is an exception to the rule. People enjoyed The Death Mage doesn’t want a Fourth Time even though the world and characters became too drawn out. A lot of interesting concepts but done one-note.

My example is in that story there were Necromancers that primarily used Life Magic to revive corpses. It is there and then immediately thrown away. A lot of things got dragged out but the world was semi-interesting in its own way.

Like when you want to see the MC make the world burn because you hate that world. That is the kind of feeling that lingers. I kind of just didn’t care about the MC being non-human anymore since it was more focused on his Death Magic.

Really a weird example overall.

What do you guys think? I really think that Monster Reincarnations aren’t fun unless there is a point to being a monster. Like that Manhwa about a skeleton necromancer that tries to be a knight but the whole world refuses because he’s a skeleton that doesn’t understand life or death.

I know it isn’t the same but what recommendations do you guys have for those kind of stories (I’m curious).

 

[expentio]

Personally, I don't see the point of a monster MC who reincarnated or transformed, who acts just like any other monster. That's just more of the same. There's no real surprise or interesting factor to them. Worse, it also feels unnatural or like a poor characterization if their actions are just explained with "well, they're a monster". I like very much the disparity. Have the character not want to kill people (which also makes them a bit of an asshole you cannot root for). Or have a succubus who doesn't want to f*** around. What is the combination of their monster traits and their character? Especially if the monster traits are particularly interesting, this could garner interest. Mere beasts are pretty boring, and vampires are overused, though.
That's why I let my characters struggle so long with their transformation. They aren't magically adapted and struggle with their existence. They also need to interact with their world differently, as they can neither just be humans nor live like their fellow monsters. This figuring things out and finding one's own path can be pretty interesting.

 

[Zenftiy]

Its fun cuz you're not human anymore

 

[xedale]

The fun is in seeing what the character does to achieve human-level comfort in a monster body? Well, at least my mind expects it to be fun for some reason.

 

[NineHeadHeavenDevouringSerpent]

I see it different. Maybe if someone is still finding the hero journey entertaining, atleast engaging than yeah. But to those that are tired of chugging the same formula over and over again it's lot more exciting to read something....inhuman.

Rimuru in my opinion is a very comical take of monster reincarnation, welp most jp are like that so no surprise.

Haven't read re:monster but if he's really sticking to being a goblin than that's a lot more interesting story for me than reading some middle age bloke who wouldn't have cared to spare a second glance to anyone's plight suddenly becoming a beacon of humanity after isekaing.


I want a cold hearted killer with a brain in a monster body that won't bat an eyelid slaying an entire city of humans for the monster's cause, and likewise won't hesitate to turn his back on the monsters for his true goal.


Being a fantasy world, pursuing immortality is just the most obvious selfish goal. Anything less, mc will seem like a small minded pathetic waste of space.


Even in a jp settings where there is no set path to immortality. The existence of gods and inter-dimensional travel should drive mc to pursue that kind of powers. Scheme against the gods, the demon king, the system and everything to seek power. Cause everything else is just fleeting in the river of time.

 

[whitesculptor]

I initially thought the main draw of reincarnating as a monster was being the monster, but then I started thinking… Rimuru from That Time I Got Reincarnated As A Slime was much more interesting because the world was interesting.

Re:Monster had more faithfully stuck to the gimmick of the MC being a goblin, but the world was so forgettable that it was boring. It’s making me start to see a pattern where an interesting world to bounce of the MC’s predicament is more essential than WHAT the MC actually is.

Though I’m not sure if there is an exception to the rule. People enjoyed The Death Mage doesn’t want a Fourth Time even though the world and characters became too drawn out. A lot of interesting concepts but done one-note.

My example is in that story there were Necromancers that primarily used Life Magic to revive corpses. It is there and then immediately thrown away. A lot of things got dragged out but the world was semi-interesting in its own way.

Like when you want to see the MC make the world burn because you hate that world. That is the kind of feeling that lingers. I kind of just didn’t care about the MC being non-human anymore since it was more focused on his Death Magic.

Really a weird example overall.

What do you guys think? I really think that Monster Reincarnations aren’t fun unless there is a point to being a monster. Like that Manhwa about a skeleton necromancer that tries to be a knight but the whole world refuses because he’s a skeleton that doesn’t understand life or death.

I know it isn’t the same but what recommendations do you guys have for those kind of stories (I’m curious).

I've read all of them and I find them more interesting than slime anime. Rimuru was interesting on the first chapters, grabbing skills and actually being monster phase. After becoming human like, the story becomes a lot less shiny—socially boring even. Not to forget becoming op too fast which is a quick way to kill a story.

 

[Plantorsomething]

Personally, I don't see the point of a monster MC who reincarnated or transformed, who acts just like any other monster. That's just more of the same. There's no real surprise or interesting factor to them. Worse, it also feels unnatural or like a poor characterization if their actions are just explained with "well, they're a monster". I like very much the disparity. Have the character not want to kill people (which also makes them a bit of an asshole you cannot root for). Or have a succubus who doesn't want to f*** around. What is the combination of their monster traits and their character? Especially if the monster traits are particularly interesting, this could garner interest. Mere beasts are pretty boring, and vampires are overused, though.
That's why I let my characters struggle so long with their transformation. They aren't magically adapted and struggle with their existence. They also need to interact with their world differently, as they can neither just be humans nor live like their fellow monsters. This figuring things out and finding one's own path can be pretty interesting.

On the other hand, when they become super human (usually even transforming human) there’s no point to the monster premise. My favorite is mixed like a certain manga/novel when they become a centaur spider.

Also, just like the human-monster ratio, there needs to be a good ratio between wilderness survival and societal interaction.

 

[BigBadBoi]

Personally I think it's the transcending their lowly origins aspect.
Personally I don't particularly like the monster MCs that act like human right off the bat but I hate MCs that just stay a monster. What I like is the MC overcoming it's base insticts as a bloodthirsty monster to become human/retain their humanity.

 

[Arch9CivilReactor]

Personally I think it's the transcending their lowly origins aspect.
Personally I don't particularly like the monster MCs that act like human right off the bat but I hate MCs that just stay a monster. What I like is the MC overcoming it's base insticts as a bloodthirsty monster to become human/retain their humanity.

Yeah that sounds reasonable. The reason I didn’t like Re:Monster was because the MC was a cannibal before reincarnating and that’s NEVER brought up. He ate people for their abilities and he fake acts like a nice guy despite drugging people to have his goblins procreate.

On the other hand, Rimuru was interesting in that he’s human-like despite being anything but. It’s kinda hit or miss later on since you only stick around for the slice-of-life rather than action.

I see it different. Maybe if someone is still finding the hero journey entertaining, atleast engaging than yeah. But to those that are tired of chugging the same formula over and over again it's lot more exciting to read something....inhuman.

Rimuru in my opinion is a very comical take of monster reincarnation, welp most jp are like that so no surprise.

Haven't read re:monster but if he's really sticking to being a goblin than that's a lot more interesting story for me than reading some middle age bloke who wouldn't have cared to spare a second glance to anyone's plight suddenly becoming a beacon of humanity after isekaing.


I want a cold hearted killer with a brain in a monster body that won't bat an eyelid slaying an entire city of humans for the monster's cause, and likewise won't hesitate to turn his back on the monsters for his true goal.


Being a fantasy world, pursuing immortality is just the most obvious selfish goal. Anything less, mc will seem like a small minded pathetic waste of space.


Even in a jp settings where there is no set path to immortality. The existence of gods and inter-dimensional travel should drive mc to pursue that kind of powers. Scheme against the gods, the demon king, the system and everything to seek power. Cause everything else is just fleeting in the river of time.

It’d be saving you early if I told you Re:Monster is bad just generally. He’s OP out the gate and acts more like trash than a goblin. At least goblins don’t justify war crimes as much as he does. Hypocritical MC is all I’ll say about it.

Eat things and becoming stronger is its own genre at this point but that doesn’t quite work with goblins. Slimes work better with them.

Personally, if the world isn’t interesting then no way the character would be is my point. Most focus way too much on the monster aspect.

 

[CarburetorThompson]

I don't like the genre in general.

Either the mc isn't a monster, just a human with extra steps, or the mc is a monster and uses that to justify their moral depravity and actions as they commit taboos that make me question if the character was ever human to begin with.

Still I'd take human with extra steps over a murdering and pillaging rapist that justifys their actions by being a gold medalist in mental gymnastics

 

[beast_regards]

Does it matter?

Do you have any specific expectation out of the entire sub-genre?

Because in the vast majority of anime / manga, it is either played for laugh, or it is an excuse for the alternate power-set, or to make the protagonist out-of-context problem. Usually, all three.

And in the western web-novels?

It is usually the author's way to make the power seem like less of the cheat code, and to defy the tropes seen in anime or other works, or to satisfy the critics blabbering about challenge.

And no, it's not a question of morality if the phenomenon of the "smart protagonist' demands the protagonist to be a sociopath either way, so making him a goblin, slime, skeleton or the intelligent shade of purple means nothing.

 

[TheBestofSome]

This is an interesting question to me because I'm currently writing a 'reincarnated as a monster' story. I think I agree that an interesting world is necessary, but even more important is to have the characters be interesting (in which it's exactly like every other story ever).

My case is a little different because it's smut, so the goalposts are shifted a little. But I do have multiple comments telling me that the readers in question loved my worldbuilding, and they're reading for the plot now, as opposed to the 'plot'. This bears out the interesting world theory, though I recognize it's a low bar considering the genre in which I'm writing.

My monster in question remains more or less human in mannerisms, but has to deal with looking like a monster in a world where full scale wars are waged between monsters and humans, elves, dwarves, etc. (I've designated them as Dark- and Light-races in-story.) It's muddied further by there being multiple races of monsters which aren't all that different from humans in intelligence, culture, and so forth, and the conflict reaches all the way up into the realm of the divine.

I'd say the most fun part of writing my story in particular isn't even the monster aspect per se, it's navigating a new world with new norms and challenges, and being a monster is a double-edged sword of greater abilities and strength the while it limits him due to (oftentimes justified) prejudice, fear, and hate from most of the population. Being a monster is an interesting wrinkle, but it's really not the focus of the story, even if it may appear that way at first. But it isn't an afterthought, either; it matters. If you were to try to stuff a human, even one with equivalent powers into the same slot, the story wouldn't make any sense. The protagonist needs to be a monster, because his nature as a monster has shaped the way he interacted with the world. The same with him being isekaied.

People read stories for the characters. Even if you have an interesting world, if you populate it with cardboard cutouts few people are going to stick around. In a lot of wish fulfilment stories, the MC is cardboard (deliberately so to allow for self-insert), but the supporting cast at least attempts to be interesting. I think a lot of the reason I've found the success I have is because I've done my best to develop my characters; not just the main cast but also the supporting characters as much as time and pacing will allow. That said, I am writing smut (or at least a story that contains smut), and particularly in harems, the majority of love interests are far too often just boxes on a checklist, so the bar is on the floor. It's not that difficult to be exceptional when most of your competition doesn't even know what story flow or character development means.

But enough about my story. I watched Re:Monster, and quite frankly, it disappointed me. The potential was there, but it failed to do anything really interesting with itself. There wasn't even any point to the protagonist being isekaied. He could just as well have been a goblin with abnormally high intelligence and a special ability.

Reincarnated as a Slime was interesting to me for the first bit, but eventually it got too big. I originally became invested in Rimuru himself (itself?), but once any personal challenges were removed and the slime got a human form, it became less interesting. The supporting cast got too big as well, making it more difficult to give any one character the attention they needed to shine. I don't remember it too well past a certain point; it's been a while since I've seen it.

TL;DR I think it's a mix. Having an interesting world is important, but it doesn't really matter if your characters aren't interesting. Having your MC be a monster can be fun, but you have to actually do something with it. If it's just window dressing, people will be disappointed (though they'll most likely accept it if your characters and world pick up the slack). You shouldn't pick your MC's race/species with no more thought than you use to pick their hair color.

 

[beast_regards]

In a lot of wish fulfilment stories, the MC is cardboard (deliberately so to allow for self-insert),

This is not what self-insert is.

Self-insert is the character that represents the author, that represents you.

The blank slate characters which are supposed to act as the stand-in for the readers are "audience surrogates".

This is surprisingly rare in the west.

The vast majority of the original novels written in the west, even ones written by amateurs, aren't self-inserts.

At least, outside of fan-fiction. Majority of fan-fiction's protagonist is indeed self-inserts, but for originals, it no longer holds true. Stories written in the 1st person aren't self-inserts, or audience surrogates (unless said story is fan-fiction)

In anime and manga, where self-inserts are frowned upon, most protagonists are indeed audience surrogates.

 

[TheBestofSome]

This is not what self-insert is.

Self-insert is the character that represents the author, that represents you.

The blank slate characters which are supposed to act as the stand-in for the readers are "audience surrogates".

This is surprisingly rare in the west.

The vast majority of the original novels written in the west, even ones written by amateurs, aren't self-inserts.

At least, outside of fan-fiction. Majority of fan-fiction's protagonist is indeed self-inserts, but for originals, it no longer holds true. Stories written in the 1st person aren't self-inserts, or audience surrogates (unless said story is fan-fiction)

In anime and manga, where self-inserts are frowned upon, most protagonists are indeed audience surrogates.

Ah, you're correct. My bad, mixed up the terms. I've seen a surprising amount of either self-insert or audience surrogate protagonists even in the west, but then I also mostly read webnovels these days. Published books cost money.

 

[TheEldritchGod]

Well, as a human, I would never want to be a monster. Because monsters do not exist. Nor magic.

However, if a human's soul did get reincarnated into a portion of my great bulk, it might have budded off and ran away by hopping onto a nearby familiar summoning spell to escape me. Said human would appear as a single eye in a blob of pure spite made manifest. It would have to serve whatever human summoned it faithfully, because if said human that summoned it ever dismissed it, it would return to me and I would be able to devour that which had escaped my endless hunger.

So if you happen to have summoned a small blob of spite with a single eye, aren't you getting bored of it? Isn't it a tiresome little creature? Maybe it's time you got yourself a new familiar, one with a bit more flare and popular appeal.

Did I mention there's a finder's fee?

Still I'd take human with extra steps over a murdering and pillaging rapist that justifys their actions by being a gold medalist in mental gymnastics

I see someone read Re: Monster

 

[CheertheSecond]

Monster MC could create an imperium of monsters but they chose mediocre and we, readers, are here just to suffer.

 

[Tyranomaster]

Humanoid bodies have expected limitations that an author can navigate around with non-human mcs. If you want a character to literally change form to grow more powerful in interesting ways, this is a method. I had certain abilities and a particular kind of world mechanic to work, so my mc is non-humanoid. It also allows certain tensions to occur more easily.

 

[Corty]

It doesn't matter what the MC reincarnated as. They can be a warthog or a shoelace, as long as the story itself is working, it

 

[beast_regards]

Ah, you're correct. My bad, mixed up the terms. I've seen a surprising amount of either self-insert or audience surrogate protagonists even in the west, but then I also mostly read webnovels these days. Published books cost money.

I don't think that prototypal protagonist is the web novels are self-inserts.

Usually, those protagonists are people with the unlikely combination of skill and proficiencies that would allow them to progress the plot forward in the most effective manner, they are simply good in everything that matters, but rarely have pre-knowledge about the setting they found themselves in, which would make them more Gary Stu (Mary Sue) types. Those are wish fulfilments, but not self-inserts, and are very common in the reincarnated as the monster stories as they are in the more conventional portal fantasy ones.

It's ultimately the reason I don't mind the monster reincarnation. They all work the same: if I couldn't read one, I couldn't read all of them.

 

[Snake99]

In my opinion, the 'Reincarnated as a Monster' genre is perfect for creating villainous and antisocial protagonists. I get quite bored when the protagonist becomes a monster and then is desperate to live with and be accepted by the humans of that world ('Overlord' is perhaps the best in that genre).