Cosmology Idea discussion.

[Garolymar]

So I've had this idea floating around for a bit, one I'd like to share with people because, well even if I ever get that far into the main story I dunno if I'd ever get to talk about it too much in detail, and I think it's a cool concept. Basically it is an ocean dyson sphere esque bubble verse inside a real universe. Or maybe it's the whole universe I don't know which way is more interesting.

I think both ways are very interesting, but the one where it is inside a more real space type void has a lot more interesting questions. Like how would the sun work, at least in the most logic bending way I could think of that sounds like just enough babbly gunk that it could work. Maybe the ocean sphere is thin and lets enough light from a super massive star to bleed through the ocean and onto the islands. another idea is that maybe a tiny sun busts through the oceans from the outer walls and at noon it's at the center of this bubble verse and lights up the entire "world" before literally retreating back into the ocean.

I also wonder which way would make it the most interesting for how the tides and the moon works, maybe there are many moons circling this giant bubble that swirls the oceans from the bottom? I'm not a scientist and obviously magic is the answer to most of this, but it's fun to think about for me, how the physics might work if some mad god was pulling the strings for it a bit to do so. I actually have a little diagram I drew. below

I like to imagine what night time might be like on this world, like when the bottom of your island is facing towards the sun, do you see these massive light rays shooting out from the ocean, how dark could it ever possibly get when it's like that? I like to imagine how cool the ocean might look too, like god rays rising from from the shores of your island home or during the day, it stead of a cloud casting shadows it's a giant continent eclipsing the sun. Or maybe it would just be sunny all the time no matter where you were? or completely dark. I also have this idea that the gods placed these beacons every where, that sort of act like, inspiration, or maybe I'll scrap that and it is just city lights from far off civilizations that you wouldn't really need a space ship to get too, instead you could sail up the cosmic ocean's surface to get there.
Again, I know magic and stuff is probably how I will explain most of this, but still I'd like to know what other's think, I've always been more of a concept world builder type, I like thinking about weird worlds, and mechanics in those worlds and systems, but it always takes forever to get there in a satisfying manner. So I thought I'd just make a thread to talk about one of my favourite ideas.

 

[Hoshino]

You could make the sun super dense.
The tides would work as long the moons gravitational force is strong enough, you could do it by making it have more mass.

Also, what you are describing is instead of the ozone layer there is a ocean, right?

So would it block the solar radiation of the sun?

And, not to mention, does the planet have a magnetic field to protect it from solar wind, that protects the ozone layer.

Considering, you have all that, would light travel through the oceans reaching the ground, because water absorbs light and how would you see?

Or you can just use magic to solves all of that.

 

[Garolymar]

You could make the sun super dense.
The tides would work as long the moons gravitational force is strong enough, you could do it by making it have more mass.

Also, what you are describing is instead of the ozone layer there is a ocean, right?

So would it block the solar radiation of the sun?

And, not to mention, does the planet have a magnetic field to protect it from solar wind, that protects the ozone layer.

Considering, you have all that, would light travel through the oceans reaching the ground, because water absorbs light and how would you see?

Or you can just use magic to solves all of that.

I actually thought maybe the ocean itself would absorb enough of the cosmic rays of the sun if it's outside and casting light into the world. But again I wonder what balance of water to how much energy the sun would have to produce to keep things warm but also not just blast everything away. I wanna stretch things just enough to make it almost seem possible. even though I know it's not. Just something fun to thing about, and it sparks a lot of cool visuals in my head. Early life on earth survived due to the ocean protecting it so I wonder how far I could stretch that to build enough suspension of disbelief.

I also like to think if maybe the ocean was shallow enough, you could see starlight bleeding through while you're sailing. Like the waves bending and twisting the stars beneath as your ship sailed up the cosmic ocean's curve on a grand new adventure.

 

[Arkus86]

So as I understand this, the islands are facing inwards, sitting on the inside of an ocean-bubble?

I think the sun lighting up the world through this bubble from the outside is a cool idea. The world would likely never get truly dark, due to the light scattering through the water, just different shades of light and shadow, depending where it is shining from.

Our Sun penetrates the ocean up to a depth of about 200m, while below that there's another 800m or so of twilight, and from my quick research, even 1m thick layer of water would be enough to reduce solar radiation from our Sun to Earth's levels. So theoretically on this front you are perfectly fine, you can create a 100m deep ocean around a world that could still receive enough light to live, while magic and different properties of your sun might give you even more leeway.

There are several other questions as well, though:
First, what is holding the bubble together? Logic dictates any force capable of creating an outward-facing gravity for the entire bubble, would also scatter said bubble without something else preventing that.
Second, are the islands free-floating in the ocean, are they floating, but anchored in place, or are they sitting on a solid base, either each on their own, or common between several/all of them? If they are free-floating, it could create an interesting situation where thoe would likely move with the tides, ocean currents, and/or following whichever moon/star is affecting them the most with its gravity.
An interesting question is also how the bubble-sun orbit would affect the poles and ocean currents.

Besides that, where does the "Dyson sphere esque" comes into play? Dyson sphere is a megastructure build around a star to harness its energy, think solar panels in a full bubble around it. Is it referring to the option of a sun flying through the bubble? In that case, the bubble could probably be considered a Dyson sphere of sorts while the sun is inside it.

 

[Garolymar]

So as I understand this, the islands are facing inwards, sitting on the inside of an ocean-bubble?

I think the sun lighting up the world through this bubble from the outside is a cool idea. The world would likely never get truly dark, due to the light scattering through the water, just different shades of light and shadow, depending where it is shining from.

Our Sun penetrates the ocean up to a depth of about 200m, while below that there's another 800m or so of twilight, and from my quick research, even 1m thick layer of water would be enough to reduce solar radiation from our Sun to Earth's levels. So theoretically on this front you are perfectly fine, you can create a 100m deep ocean around a world that could still receive enough light to live, while magic and different properties of your sun might give you even more leeway.

There are several other questions as well, though:
First, what is holding the bubble together? Logic dictates any force capable of creating an outward-facing gravity for the entire bubble, would also scatter said bubble without something else preventing that.
Second, are the islands free-floating in the ocean, are they floating, but anchored in place, or are they sitting on a solid base, either each on their own, or common between several/all of them? If they are free-floating, it could create an interesting situation where thoe would likely move with the tides, ocean currents, and/or following whichever moon/star is affecting them the most with its gravity.
An interesting question is also how the bubble-sun orbit would affect the poles and ocean currents.

Besides that, where does the "Dyson sphere esque" comes into play? Dyson sphere is a megastructure build around a star to harness its energy, think solar panels in a full bubble around it. Is it referring to the option of a sun flying through the bubble? In that case, the bubble could probably be considered a Dyson sphere of sorts while the sun is inside it.

So the bubble's integrity is leaning heavily on the "Don't think about it, gods did it" sort of thing, cause this is a concept for a fantasy novel, but I do like trying to think about the physics of such a thing to better paint what it might look like.

None of this is set in stone mostly want to gauge peoples thoughts to see what would make the most sense. I like the idea that the continents actually move with the ocean currents I have this really cool idea where instead of the moon causing eclipses, grand continents might blot out the sun for a few hours/days/weeks/months. And that could cause seasonal changes? Like imagine a country the size of Russia slowly making it's way past the sun and causing lower light levels and less over all heat to penetrate the sphere causing a sort of winter?

As for how deep the ocean goes, I'd definitely want it shallow enough so that more than just blue could get into the world. Do you think that star light, like from other stars would be strong enough to penetrate the water? like Imagine if we were on a boat in the middle of winter, with a continental eclipse blocking out most of the sun's light, if we looked down could we see star light piercing through the ocean? I think that visual is so cool, and obviously I can just handwave it and say "Yeah it works" but I do like to have some basis in reality, like enough "Yeah it actually works this way kinda" that people might be able to buy it even just a smidge.

The Dyson sphere terminology I just used cause I couldn't think of a better way to describe what I was trying to describe. When I was talking about it with my brother I also used a balloon as an example, where the world basically takes place inside of it, and the ocean is gravitationally pushed to the flesh of it. I guess it does sort of work with another idea I had for the sun, where it would actually crash into the ocean on one side, noon would basically be as the sun hangs in the center of the "planet" and then it would crash out the other side. But I feel like that idea is way to devastating to explain. Like suspension of disbelief leaps out the damn window with that.

I'm not super sciency/sci fi, but I love people who have that sort of mind, cause I'd like to know more about how this might "realistically" (lol) work. I do like the idea of snowy capped poles, they'd be super massive based on how large I want this thing to be. just garguantuan, snowy deserts that would go on forever, if people ever did sail to them though they'd probably freeze to death before even getting there, but I dunno if that would make sense.

I should work on a continental calendar... Again an idea I'm not sure I'm going with yet, but maybe the people see these islands in the sky as a heaven they don't think they can reach, ooh and maybe the months are named after whatever continent is currently hanging in the sky most prominently

This is mostly a fun brain storming sort of thing, cause I love this concept, But I'm actually kinda scared to go full on board with it, cause, it's very different than how a normal planet would work and I just know it's going to be a hell of a thing to explain, like how night and day, look and work, but damn if it isn't a cool thing to think about.

EDIT: I was actually thinking more about the mechanics. What if, there was one set of island/continents that actually just sort stayed anchored, on the side opposite of where the sun was (Basically where all of history and people would actually live), and day and the day and night cycles were caused by distant continents and islands floating in front of the sun in the ocean above? and maybe they do have live living on them too, but they're strange, and less reliant on sun, (The Night Lands could be a good name) That could probably explain a day and night cycle really well, and maybe summer is actually a few months where it's always day light and winter is a few months where it's always night? That could work, and could make things more stable.

I do like the idea of being on one of those continents floating infront of the suns rays though, I like to image what it would look like, with the ocean glowing beneath you and then you look up and the continents/islands above are like giant stone clouds in the sky.

 

[Arkus86]

None of this is set in stone mostly want to gauge peoples thoughts to see what would make the most sense. I like the idea that the continents actually move with the ocean currents I have this really cool idea where instead of the moon causing eclipses, grand continents might blot out the sun for a few hours/days/weeks/months. And that could cause seasonal changes? Like imagine a country the size of Russia slowly making it's way past the sun and causing lower light levels and less over all heat to penetrate the sphere causing a sort of winter?

That sounds like a curious, plausible idea. Just with only one sun, you have to remember it would be dark on both continents at the same time, more dark on the continent blocking the light, and probably brighter on the landmass on the receiving end of the shadow. Some day-night/seasonal cycle ballancing would be needed.

I should work on a continental calendar... Again an idea I'm not sure I'm going with yet, but maybe the people see these islands in the sky as a heaven they don't think they can reach, ooh and maybe the months are named after whatever continent is currently hanging in the sky most prominently

Maybe people on each continent passing "above" and "below" believing their gods are living on the other continent that they can see, but never reached?

As for how deep the ocean goes, I'd definitely want it shallow enough so that more than just blue could get into the world. Do you think that star light, like from other stars would be strong enough to penetrate the water? like Imagine if we were on a boat in the middle of winter, with a continental eclipse blocking out most of the sun's light, if we looked down could we see star light piercing through the ocean? I think that visual is so cool, and obviously I can just handwave it and say "Yeah it works" but I do like to have some basis in reality, like enough "Yeah it actually works this way kinda" that people might be able to buy it even just a smidge.

Not from any distant stars, I don't believe so, but you could have a solar system with two or more stars, one main, bright and the rest smaller and dimmer. It could also help with the seasons and diurnal cycle.

 

[Garolymar]

That sounds like a curious, plausible idea. Just with only one sun, you have to remember it would be dark on both continents at the same time, more dark on the continent blocking the light, and probably brighter on the landmass on the receiving end of the shadow. Some day-night/seasonal cycle ballancing would be needed.

Maybe people on each continent passing "above" and "below" believing their gods are living on the other continent that they can see, but never reached?

Not from any distant stars, I don't believe so, but you could have a solar system with two or more stars, one main, bright and the rest smaller and dimmer. It could also help with the seasons and diurnal cycle.

Yeah, day and night cycles are the hardest thing for me to even wrap my mind around with this thing, I do like the idea of multiple stars. Maybe it's a 3 body problem type thing? with the seasons changing based on how close into proximity the other stars are? and when they're further away, (not like light years but you know within Solar System range) you can see them under the ocean, or above you when the light levels are lower, depending on where you are.

How many stars do you think would be too many? In lore there are 6 major dieties, aw that'd be super cool if each season, or time period was basically named after the God/star that was currently closest. that's a hell of a lot more than 3 bodies though lol

 

[Arkus86]

Yeah, day and night cycles are the hardest thing for me to even wrap my mind around with this thing, I do like the idea of multiple stars. Maybe it's a 3 body problem type thing? with the seasons changing based on how close into proximity the other stars are? and when they're further away, (not like light years but you know within Solar System range) you can see them under the ocean, or above you when the light levels are lower, depending on where you are.

How many stars do you think would be too many?

Yes, that absolutely sounds good. Going by gut feeling rather than any particular science, I would say 2 stars would be sufficient, 3 would be good, 4-5 if you were feeling fancy, but anything more that that is starting to feel too convoluted.

 

[Garolymar]

I've been having fun in MS paint so I update it with all the star names.

Onorus would keep it all place as the main star, then the other stars based on their energy output could change seasons as they got closer/further. if there orbits were stable enough they could probably be even used for navigation right? based on the time of year. Maybe they also always orbit in similar positions whenever they come around, Like Aureha always sort of coming from "the east" Or Lughren always sort of hanging around in "the north"

 

[Arkus86]

I've been having fun in MS paint so I update it with all the star names.
View attachment 38924

Onorus would keep it all place as the main star, then the other stars based on their energy output could change seasons as they got closer/further. if there orbits were stable enough they could probably be even used for navigation right? based on the time of year. Maybe they also always orbit in similar positions whenever they come around, Like Aureha always sort of coming from "the east" Or Lughren always sort of hanging around in "the north"

They could absolutely be used for navigation, though it would be more complicated. In a comparison with our world, it would not be just clouds blocking the sight of the stars (on both sides of the bubble), but also other landmasses, and stormy seas could make accurate acquisition even harder due to the bending of light, not to mention their comparatively low number. But on the other hand, the different landmasses in the sky and possibly distinctive landmarks on them could be used instead of - or in conjunction with the suns. Of course, assuming stable and predictable patterns in their movement.

On another topic, they would probably try to dive towards the suns at some point, like we always wanted to reach for the sun, right? Only to find, if they could dive deep enough, the outer edge of the bubble and the vast space beyond it.

 

[Garolymar]

They could absolutely be used for navigation, though it would be more complicated. In a comparison with our world, it would not be just clouds blocking the sight of the stars (on both sides of the bubble), but also other landmasses, and stormy seas could make accurate acquisition even harder due to the bending of light, not to mention their comparatively low number. But on the other hand, the different landmasses in the sky and possibly distinctive landmarks on them could be used instead of - or in conjunction with the suns. Of course, assuming stable and predictable patterns in their movement.

On another topic, they would probably try to dive towards the suns at some point, like we always wanted to reach dor the sun, right? Only to find, if they could dive deep enough, the outer edge of the bubble and the vast space beyond it.

Yeah, I actually love writing stuff about world mechanics from the perspective of in world scholars. One where they experiment diving deeper and deeper, and then wondering why all of a sudden there is no more air, and their body freezes. Or the types of stories that could come from sailors who lost their ships to maybe massive whirlpools that suck some of the water out into real space? and they come back talking about how the deep dark below tried to devour them. Old wives tales about diving too deep to scare kids from staying out too long and playing on the beach.

I just really love the danger of space being that close for the common man to actually be able to accidentally get too close. Imagine how terrifying it'd be if you actually had the equipment to dive deep enough and you press your fingers past the water barrier into nothingness? that sounds so damn cool to me.

I did actually have an idea too, I'm pretty sure I put it up there, but it might have actually been on a post in another thread, where the gods left beacons of light planted into the continents. They could also work for navigation, especially the beacons planted on the continents directly above where most of "history" would take place. they were my original idea for stars, when I imagine the ocean dome being the universe entirely, instead of being inside of a universe similar to what we already have.

 

[Arkus86]

Or the types of stories that could come from sailors who lost their ships to maybe massive whirlpools that suck some of the water out into real space? and they come back talking about how the deep dark below tried to devour them.

I can easily imagine stories like those leading to myths of "the great evil that dwells bellow" sort, swallowing ships either out of unsatiable hunger or sheer malice, and keeping the people from reaching for the suns, discouraging them from trying to dive altogether to avoid this evil. Similar if they were to dig too deep, if the bottoms of islands could touch the outside of the bubble.

I just really love the danger of space being that close for the common man to actually be able to accidentally get too close. Imagine how terrifying it'd be if you actually had the equipment to dive deep enough and you press your fingers past the water barrier into nothingness? that sounds so damn cool to me.

It's a surreal and terrifying thought. One moment you are inside water, but if you just reach out your hand, there's freezing emptiness... and if you fall out, it's a one-way ticket.

I did actually have an idea too, I'm pretty sure I put it up there, but it might have actually been on a post in another thread, where the gods left beacons of light planted into the continents. They could also work for navigation, especially the beacons planted on the continents directly above where most of "history" would take place. they were my original idea for stars, when I imagine the ocean dome being the universe entirely, instead of being inside of a universe similar to what we already have.

Beacons could absolutely work, especially if they have distinctive properties like different light colours. They might have a mysterious element in your sotry too, in what is their purpose in the workings of the world.


I ahve never been able to write a proper story, but I love world building... or building on other people's world-building.

 

[Garolymar]

I can easily imagine stories like those leading to myths of "the great evil that dwells bellow" sort, swallowing ships either out of unsatiable hunger or sheer malice, and keeping the people from reaching for the suns, discouraging them from trying to dive altogether to avoid this evil. Similar if they were to dig too deep, if the bottoms of islands could touch the outside of the bubble.

It's a surreal and terrifying thought. One moment you are inside water, but if you just reach out your hand, there's freezing emptiness... and if you fall out, it's a one-way ticket.

Beacons could absolutely work, especially if they have distinctive properties like different light colours. They might have a mysterious element in your sotry too, in what is their purpose in the workings of the world.


I ahve never been able to write a proper story, but I love world building... or building on other people's world-building.

I'm honestly more of an idea guy/world builder type as well, I like coming up with magic systems and cosmologies, and gods and back stories. but like keeping a proper narrative is much harder.

I actually just thought of a really cool idea, I've had this issue in my story where a certain continent was supposed to be "lost" kinda Atlantis parallel. but I thought of something way cooler and more succinct to this idea. Instead of the continent just sinking to the bottom of the ocean, it actually got pushed right out and now the lost lands orbit the giant watery sphere like a moon. That's why the MC can never really go back home. Their home is out in space. I've actually been struggling a bunch trying to figure out how to reconcile that, but damn, no sleep and brainstormin in here with you really got the juices flowing.

I was also thinking about how an asteroid would impact this sort of world and like, Maybe maelstroms/whirl pools are the ancient remnants of these events kinda like how craters are for us, and they drag unwary sailors to the bottom. Could give the whole watery dome thing a really cool celestial pock marked history. Not only that but imagine looking up at the morning sky and one of the maelstroms is lit up by the sun? Damn that'd be cool.

I should not be awake still, but this got me all hyped and now I can't sleep. My schedule is sooo cooked.

 

[Alski]

I just really love the danger of space being that close for the common man to actually be able to accidentally get too close. Imagine how terrifying it'd be if you actually had the equipment to dive deep enough and you press your fingers past the water barrier into nothingness? that sounds so damn cool to me.

They wouldnt even need to stick their hand outside the water bubble, depending on which side of the planet they are currently on the waters would be extremely hot or cold as you get close to the edge.

 

[laccoff_mawning]

The islands are on the backs of giant turtles.

You're welcome.

 

[Garolymar]

The islands are on the backs of giant turtles.

You're welcome.

A twist on this I was thinking about is, what if they're not like super massive island turtles but moderately size, coral reef turtles? I've been trying to think of what the ocean "floor" life would be like, and how it would cope with being near probably the most dangerous part of this world, and this could be a cool twist. Fishing seasons could be based on what Reef turtles are currently in the area. It could also be more that just turtles too.

Imagine whole colonies of fish life following along side these massive whales that are like the living anchors of undersea life.

That's a good point by Alski too about the temperatures at the very edge between space and water, There definitely is a little magic keeping it from completely becoming an ice block, but I do like that idea where depending on the season, if you go to deep, the temperature just gets so wild. It's another good way to make it challenging for those that are trying map out their world.

 

[hidayo]

SF things get my head spi... er, initiate motion characterized by angular acceleration resulting from applied torque around the principal axis of rotation.

 

[Garolymar]

SF things get my head spi... er, initiate motion characterized by angular acceleration resulting from applied torque around the principal axis of rotation.

My favourite type of worlds are ones that sort of edge between scifi and fantasy lol. This idea is kind of a mix of Xenoblade's infinite ocean universe and ring worlds from scifi.

I've been trying to get an image generated of the concept, because those MS paint drawings are the extent of how good I am at drawing, and it's impossible for me to get it to see what I'm seeing in my head. When I talk about the continents floating it just shoots out generic flying islands. And the sky is all wrong, and I asked it to create an image of what it might be like to be on an island with the bottom facing towards the light of the sun and it just... doesn't know what the hell I am saying, or maybe I just suck at prompts lol.

 

[RainingFish]

How about the sun is in the middle of the bubble, and it's orbited by a giant planet that people call the moon, and when the moon eclipses the sun, it's night.

 

[Garolymar]

How about the sun is in the middle of the bubble, and it's orbited by a giant planet that people call the moon, and when the moon eclipses the sun, it's night.

This was actually how I initially imagined it, but I couldn't figure out how to work night and day cycles into the world if the sun was in the center.

Edit: Technically I did have a way for night and day to come, I imagine the sun actually diving back into space through the ocean and it would orbit in and out of the dome. But I feel like night and day would basically become catastrophes that even breaks my suspension of disbelief lol

That moon idea orbiting it though could be interesting if it worked kinda like my continental eclipse idea. Where the Moon blocks enough sun light that instead of being a beacon at night it is the actual reason night comes.