Dwarves as the Antagonists?

[Macha]

Hmm. Fair enough.

Elves...???

Even the beastfolk are elves. That's how sad the Elder Scrolls are.

Those cats are elves. Praise Azura.

 

[Shiriru_B]

But hm... I haven't seen any, no. I think I've seen one where they turn into stone when sunlight hits em, but I don't remember the title.

Did someone get inspired by LOTR Trolls or something.


Edit: Also I now remember "The Reincarnation of Alysara" had evil dwarfs in them. Too bad the book hasn't been updated in a long while.

 

[FieryLou]

You might want to look into "The beginning after the End". Dwarfs are not the "main baddies" and not all of them are "bad" but the leader will do some fucked up shit.

 

[BigBadBoi]

Do you know any one you can recommend where they're actually the bad guys? Or there's at least a unique take on them, as long as it's not just simply, ale-loving, blacksmithing folk.

Apocalypse Reborn. Basically 4X grand strategy isekai with ZERO litrpg slop. The Dwarves are eugenicist fanatics that treat their lower caste as disposable tools.
I'm trying to think of any other story with evil dwarves not mentioned in this thread but I got nothing.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Dwarves can't be antagonists since they hate elves.

 

[Justhetip...]

Dwarves can't be antagonists since they hate elves.

I think hating elves is an option any author can choose from. This is what I meant when I said almost all dwarves seem to be cut off front the same clothes, elf-hating, ale-loving, blacksmithing folk.

I have a feeling you're actually trolling. Because hating elves doesn't contradict dwarves being antagonists.

 

[CharlesEBrown]

Personally, I prefer to have most races/species possess members on both sides of the "protagonist/antagonist" equation. If an entire race/species is the bad guy, unless they were CREATED to be evil or just 'antagonists' by "Dark Forces" there will usually be at least one exception, or it will be due to some miscommunication (e.g. for a shared universe/convention based Star Wars campaign I introduced an alien race that was insanely strong and often required Imperial and Rebel forces to work together to survive encounters with them; it ultimately turned out a group of inexperienced Jedi encountered them in their distant past, mistook part of their nature for being "corrupted by the Dark Side" and drove them out of the galaxy, almost to extinction. Now, several generations have passed, they gained a LOT of power, and are back looking for revenge (at least until someone can get in contact with their leaders and explain the true history ... which, of course, first requires FINDING that true history)...

 

[RepresentingWrath]

I think hating elves is an option any author can choose from. This is what I meant when I said almost all dwarves seem to be cut off front the same clothes, elf-hating, ale-loving, blacksmithing folk.

I have a feeling you're actually trolling. Because hating elves doesn't contradict dwarves being antagonists.

A little bit of trolling, yes. As for your overall message, I agree partially. The problem is height. No, I'm serious here. How can dwarves not be miners in a fantasy setting? They can't farm properly, they can't advance culturally, what else is left to do other than mining? With mining comes another problem, need for trade. Maybe I'm overthinking this.

As for your initial question. Warhammer Fantasy has dwarfs that are considered good, but they are total assess. Their language has no word for 'forgive'. All their grudges go into a 'book of grudges', a book where they record every kind of slight, no matter how small or big it was.

...There are also Chaos Dwarfs... They enslaved tribes of goblins, did genetic experiments and created orcs because of that so that they would have more slaves, serve one of the chaos gods, those are the most evil entities of the world that corrupt everything, they are super industrious and their cities are like cyberpunk ones, for a simple slight you get to serve in death corps, they enslave normal dwarves and turn them into centaurs, crossing them with pigs. They also share all the unpleasant, asshole like traits of usual dwarfs, and they hate usual dwarfs the most, and yeah... Overall chill guys. You can look into them.

 

[Justhetip...]

A little bit of trolling, yes. As for your overall message, I agree partially. The problem is height. No, I'm serious here. How can dwarves not be miners in a fantasy setting? They can't farm properly, they can't advance culturally, what else is left to do other than mining? With mining comes another problem, need for trade. Maybe I'm overthinking this.

A lot of this can be solved by giving them a unique diet. And the very lack of food could be a motivation for their expansion too. Again, how does height relate to farming and culture. You must really hate dwarves.

As for your initial question. Warhammer Fantasy has dwarfs that are considered good, but they are total assess. Their language has no word for 'forgive'. All their grudges go into a 'book of grudges', a book where they record every kind of slight, no matter how small or big it was.

Yeah, this is the kind of pettiness I want. Thanks.

...There are also Chaos Dwarfs... They enslaved tribes of goblins, did genetic experiments and created orcs because of that so that they would have more slaves, serve one of the chaos gods, those are the most evil entities of the world that corrupt everything, they are super industrious and their cities are like cyberpunk ones, for a simple slight you get to serve in death corps, they enslave normal dwarves and turn them into centaurs, crossing them with pigs. They also share all the unpleasant, asshole like traits of usual dwarfs, and they hate usual dwarfs the most, and yeah... Overall chill guys. You can look into them.

Wow, just wow. Begins by stating atrocities upon atrocities, then ends by calling them overall chill guys.

 

[Macha]

A lot of this can be solved by giving them a unique diet. And the very lack of food could be a motivation for their expansion too. Again, how does height relate to farming and culture. You must really hate dwarves.

Yeah, this is the kind of pettiness I want. Thanks.

Wow, just wow. Begins by stating atrocities upon atrocities, then ends by calling them overall chill guys.

They really are overall chill guys compared to something like Elder Scrolls elves.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

A lot of this can be solved by giving them a unique diet. And the very lack of food could be a motivation for their expansion too. Again, how does height relate to farming and culture. You must really hate dwarves.

I actually like dwarves. As for why it's harder to farm, it's because they are small. Since they are small it's harder to use animals and plow the land, you need to exert more strength and use smaller tools, and so on. You can say, 'but they can use technology!' The problem is that they have to actually achieve this progress somehow, right? How are you going to do it if you can't feed yourself with usual farming? Unique diet is something one can use to patch this up. In WH Fantasy they have 'stone bread'. It's made with part actual flour, part grouned rocks.

As for culture, same as farming. How are you going to paint if your arms are so short? How are you going to dance if you are very stocky and not agile? I guess you can do music. ?‍ Or, you can do all the stereotypes, or something adjacent to those stereotypes.

 

[Justhetip...]

I actually like dwarves. As for why it's harder to farm, it's because they are small. Since they are small it's harder to use animals and plow the land, you need to exert more strength and use smaller tools, and so on. You can say, 'but they can use technology!' The problem is that they have to actually achieve this progress somehow, right? How are you going to do it if you can't feed yourself with usual farming? Unique diet is something one can use to patch this up. In WH Fantasy they have 'stone bread'. It's made with part actual flour, part grouned rocks.

Exactly, probably why a unique diet is the way to go.

As for culture, same as farming. How are you going to paint if your arms are so short? How are you going to dance if you are very stocky and not agile? I guess you can do music. ?‍ Or, you can do all the stereotypes, or something adjacent to those stereotypes.

Again. This is why whatever culture they have, might eventually turn out to look strange in the eyes of other, taller races. They're dancing might just consist of stomping and shimmying from side to side, it's still a cultural. Again, If they can blacksmith, how can they not paint. Is this another subtle trolling??

 

[Shiriru_B]

Exactly, probably why a unique diet is the way to go.

Again. This is why whatever culture they have, might eventually turn out to look strange in the eyes of other, taller races. They're dancing might just consist of stomping and shimmying from side to side, it's still a cultural. Again, If they can blacksmith, how can they not paint. Is this another subtle trolling??

I want to see dwarfs do something similar to the haka dance, I'd think it would work for them. Something intimidating and traditional.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Again. This is why whatever culture they have, might eventually turn out to look strange in the eyes of other, taller races. They're dancing might just consist of stomping and shimmying from side to side, it's still a cultural. Again, If they can blacksmith, how can they not paint. Is this another subtle trolling??

No, it's not trolling. Being great jewellers is the usual trope, so I didn't mention it. I thought we are avoiding usual tropes. As for stomping and so on, I don't know. Orcs usually have this in various settings, and no one considers them a cultural race.

 

[Justhetip...]

No, it's not trolling. Being great jewellers is the usual trope, so I didn't mention it. I thought we are avoiding usual tropes. As for stomping and so on, I don't know. Orcs usually have this in various settings, and no one considers them a cultural race.

I guess it's because certain anatomical traits also determine what each race is skilled in, and that usually establishes a cliche, or standard that most writers use when they're writing, just like the way most times elves are swift, agile archers.

Jewelling does make sense. As for painting, I also honestly don't see dwarves painting because of they're somewhat survivalist environment. After all, arts like painting only come about when other basic needs are fulfilled.

I'm mostly satisfied with dwarves being the antagonists since that was the original aim of the thread.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

I guess it's because certain anatomical traits also determine what each race is skilled in, and that usually establishes a cliche, or standard that most writers use when they're writing, just like the way most times elves are swift, agile archers.

Jewelling does make sense. As for painting, I also honestly don't see dwarves painting because of they're somewhat survivalist environment. After all, arts like painting only come about when other basic needs are fulfilled.

I'm mostly satisfied with dwarves being the antagonists since that was the original aim of the thread.

I think a lot more can be done with dwarves if we change them from being 'smol humans' to something else. While Skavens are already a thing, and making dwarves basiclaly stone or crystal golems isn't groundbreaking either, there are ways to make them shine, no pun intended.

 

[RainingFish]

Why do you think dwarves have been mostly established as good guys in most media?

Do you know any one you can recommend where they're actually the bad guys? Or there's at least a unique take on them, as long as it's not just simply, ale-loving, blacksmithing folk.

Thanks!

Because of Tolkien and his books the Lord of The Rings, and The Hobbit. That guy invented the modern dwarves and elves.

There are some evil dwarves in D&D like the Duergar. and their are also some evil dwarves in Warhammer called The Chaos Dwarfs.

As for dwarves before Tolkien, I'm lazy, and asked Grok.

Evil dwarves appear in some old folklore and fairy tales, though they’re not always inherently malevolent. In Germanic and Norse traditions, dwarves (often called "dvergar") are typically cunning, greedy, or mischievous rather than outright evil. For example:

• In the Poetic Edda and Prose Edda, Norse dwarves like Fjalar and Galar are depicted as deceitful, murdering the god Kvasir to create the Mead of Poetry. They’re driven by greed and self-interest.
• In Germanic tales, dwarves often guard treasures or hoard wealth, sometimes cursing or tricking humans who seek it, as seen in stories like The Nibelungenlied, where Alberich the dwarf is a scheming figure.
• In later European fairy tales, such as those collected by the Brothers Grimm, dwarves can be antagonistic. In Snow White, the dwarves are benevolent, but other tales portray dwarves as selfish or vengeful, like in Rumpelstiltskin, where the titular dwarf manipulates the miller’s daughter for his own gain.

However, dwarves aren’t universally evil. Many tales portray them as neutral, skilled craftsmen (e.g., forging Thor’s hammer, Mjölnir) or even helpful if treated with respect. Their "evil" traits often stem from greed, pride, or a trickster nature rather than pure malice. Context matters—dwarves in folklore reflect human flaws more than demonic evil.