Thoughts on RPG Systems...

[D.S.Nate]

So here is an interesting one that we got talking to talking about on my discord today:

What are your thoughts on RPG stat systems in stories?

My answer:

Likely going to be an outlier here but.

I guess it feels like progressing in a game and to some people, that is incentive enough to read it I see no issue with the stat system myself. The problem I feel lies with how little it adds to the story

In most stories, it is just a copy-paste of what you have IRL playing games and unless you are someone who gets mad hyped over numbers going up on their own then it just feels like needless padding Not to mention how just like scouters or power levels is simplifies combat to who has the bigger number most of the time Most ones I've come across just use it as a crutch to fain progression and pull out 50billion moves that I cannot keep track of.

So then the 'progression' feels fake and is lost on me It embraces the trope whilst adding mystery to the system itself. Plus it leans on the rule of cool do damn hard that I just don't get into thinking about that stuff. The stat system is also there but kind of out of sight out of mind giving just enough into that is relevant instead a whole spreadsheet of numbers

 

[Corty]

Personal opinion:

Overused and should not be used in any way, shape, or form outside of stories where the protag gets isekaid into a video game. They are more of a restrictive shackles for the story than a positive point.

 

[NotaNuffian]

It's only use is to track or at least show that the MC strength is growing.

That's it.

It is an unreliable scale.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Lazy substitute for creativity. It can work, but you have to follow a very specific set of requirments to make it work properly. Needless to say, people rarely, if ever, follow those requirments. So yeah, if you can't come up with interesting plot, characters, if you can't come up with interesting powers or power system, if you can't come up with interesting scenarios to mix characters and powers, you use RPG systems and call it creativity. You measure creativity in how 'in-depth' this RPG system is, which is the complete opposite of what can be called a creative process for every normal person.

 

[AYM]

Out of 100 stories, 99 stories with rpg stat systems don't use the system meaningfully, and the system mechanics don't make sense for a real game anyway.
Meaningfully writing stats requires you to keep constant track of this type of character development and develop a believable game system. This spends your resources you could be spending on tracking more impactful character development.

 

[CharlesEBrown]

So much hate for RPG systems... glad I haven't posted mine then.

 

[beast_regards]

Don't matter.

Use them or not, it's entirely your choice.

The LitRPG itself a became tiny cultural zeitgeist among the web novels as much more people have a clear context behind what they mean, something that had never happened before, and in a way, it reflects the society we live in.

The D&D first edition came out in 70's and it, as the tabletop game, had stats, however if you presented the LitRPG to the avid player of the D&D back in the day, he wouldn't understand it, even if it resembles that tabletop game that became such a phenomenon back in the day. Because, the society wasn't there yet.

But today, it is different. We live surrounded by the systems and statistics, and most of those systems work against us. An algorithm decides everything from job interviews to the random internet interaction, and there are stats for everything, their work is however out of our control and they hamper us more than they help. This very site we write this post on had stats, and other sites have it even worse. Perhaps there is nothing that would upload the skills into our brain, but rest assured, some bureaucrats would absolutely assign levels to your qualifications, even if they won't call it this way.

So, if you want to include the system that this time, feel free to.

There is nothing wrong with it, it reflects on the feeling the modern society have, anyway...

And if you don't want to put this stuff in your story, then don't. It's your story, and it carries the message you want.

You don't have to be worried about the criticism.

If you won't have it, people who call the LitRPG "lazy" would find the other aspect of the story to complain about.

 

[JayMark]

Don't matter.

Use them or not, it's entirely your choice.

The LitRPG itself a became tiny cultural zeitgeist among the web novels as much more people have a clear context behind what they mean, something that had never happened before, and in a way, it reflects the society we live in.

The D&D first edition came out in 70's and it, as the tabletop game, had stats, however if you presented the LitRPG to the avid player of the D&D back in the day, he wouldn't understand it, even if it resembles that tabletop game that became such a phenomenon back in the day. Because, the society wasn't there yet.

But today, it is different. We live surrounded by the systems and statistics, and most of those systems work against us. An algorithm decides everything from job interviews to the random internet interaction, and there are stats for everything, their work is however out of our control and they hamper us more than they help. This very site we write this post on had stats, and other sites have it even worse. Perhaps there is nothing that would upload the skills into our brain, but rest assured, some bureaucrats would absolutely assign levels to your qualifications, even if they won't call it this way.

So, if you want to include the system that this time, feel free to.

There is nothing wrong with it, it reflects on the feeling the modern society have, anyway...

And if you don't want to put this stuff in your story, then don't. It's your story, and it carries the message you want.

You don't have to be worried about the criticism.

If you won't have it, people who call the LitRPG "lazy" would find the other aspect of the story to complain about.

Galaxy brain post.

 

[beast_regards]

Galaxy brain post.

 

[AncestorDuck]

There is no bad trope, only a bad writer. If the story, plot, etc., is good, one can even make people like NTR.


The best example is Berserk. While not being NTR in the traditional sense, the FL is raped; something that would cause 95% of readers to drop a work. Yet, Berserk is very popular and highly regarded. That's because it’s not just used for fetishism but serves a purpose, explores the trauma of sexual abuse, and challenges the protagonist in more ways than just physically.


In short, don’t blame a trope; blame the author. :)

 

[beast_regards]

In short, don’t blame a trope; blame the author. :)

Or better yet, name the novel Blame!

Oh, wait, that's copyrighted.

 

[LilRora]

PRG stat systems are potentially a good tool, but in the end just a tool. It shouldn't be used as a foundation of the story's power system, but as a way to represent it where it's appropriate.

 

[melchi]

It is kinda hard to argue with success. Take shirtaloon for example, he has almost 10k patreons. If litrpgs are bad then a lot of people vote with their pocketbook otherwise.

That being said, I really hope that most of these creations don't end up as actual games because the webnovel systems tend to be a hot mess that isn't very well thought out at all. (Not all of them!)

 

[NotaNuffian]

It is kinda hard to argue with success. Take shirtaloon for example, he has almost 10k patreons. If litrpgs are bad then a lot of people vote with their pocketbook otherwise.

That being said, I really hope that most of these creations don't end up as actual games because the webnovel systems tend to be a hot mess that isn't very well thought out at all. (Not all of them!)

Holy hell the guy is... known.

His system is interesting if I remember correctly. Need to double check before confirming further.

 

[melchi]

Holy hell the guy is... known.

His system is interesting if I remember correctly. Need to double check before confirming further.

There are a lot of fan characters that people have made. If your readers can look at the character sheets in a novel and figure out how to create their own characters on their own then you are doing it right.

 

[NotaNuffian]

There are a lot of fan characters that people have made. If your readers can look at the character sheets in a novel and figure out how to create their own characters on their own then you are doing it right.

...


I might be stupid but running past the Reddit asking about how the system work as well as checking the fandom wikia of it.

I still come back to the same question; how does it work?

I get that luck is something and hence creativity, but the four basic stats are
1. Power: Strength (?)
2. Speed: Dexterity (?)
3. Recovery: Constitution (?)
4. Spirit: ????????

And you shove one essense into one stat, permanently making that stat aligning to said essense.

Also the four stats' essenses cannot be countering one another ie fire and water?

Inserting an essense into a stat for the first time and you get a free first skill for said stat. Do it for two more stats and you get two free skills, the three essense filled stats will now force a birth of a new essense that will shove itself into the fourth and last empty stat that will churn a free skill.

To upgrade the stat, you need to use awakening stones.

And I am once again lost.



-------


It is from here I need to stop.



So basically Shirlatoon made a game.

 

[melchi]

...


I might be stupid but running past the Reddit asking about how the system work as well as checking the fandom wikia of it.

I still come back to the same question; how does it work?

I get that luck is something and hence creativity, but the four basic stats are
1. Power: Strength (?)
2. Speed: Dexterity (?)
3. Recovery: Constitution (?)
4. Spirit: ????????

And you shove one essense into one stat, permanently making that stat aligning to said essense.

Also the four stats' essenses cannot be countering one another ie fire and water?

Inserting an essense into a stat for the first time and you get a free first skill for said stat. Do it for two more stats and you get two free skills, the three essense filled stats will now force a birth of a new essense that will shove itself into the fourth and last empty stat that will churn a free skill.

To upgrade the stat, you need to use awakening stones.

And I am once again lost.



-------


It is from here I need to stop.



So basically Shirlatoon made a game.

All the detailed restrictions can be summed up as: advancing powers is difficult and picking certain things exclude others.

 

[NotaNuffian]

All the detailed restrictions can be summed up as: advancing powers is difficult and picking certain things exclude others.

Which is cool.

I still recall in the past when I enjoyed LitRPGs and authors would purposely made a bunch of so called evolution paths/ branches and then give the main characters and readers to see the potential.

When the MC chose a path, the other paths and subsequent power ups were lost forever and it gave MC and me who was a reader heartaches.

Nowadays, this is rare.

Either MC grew to become a master of all trades or the choices are a joke.

Do you want to be a strongman, a roadrunner, or Superman?

 

[Clo]

Shirtaloon was mentioned in this thread, and I find his HWFWM story fun, but:

- he moved away from the stats, numbers, crunch and play-by-play. His most recent writing feels like regular fantasy to me.
- his custom system, that people love, is clearly something cool he dreamed up in his head, but not realistic RPG design. It's very wishy-washy and pseudo-design. That makes it feel like it's just a coat of RPG paint, but written by a non-designer. Which he is.

I think people shouldn't use numbers, classes, stats and skills if they don't serve any purpose beyond showing progression. (Look, he had 4 STR but now he has 480!)
If the reader doesn't know what 480 Strength means realistically, the number itself is meaningless.

And because most writers don't actually simulate their combat encounters on paper, and just write what the story demands, then all those numbers ultimately don't matter. The good guy somehow wins despite the stat difference, if that's the story the writer wants to tell. Which is fine. But then why bother putting the stats in, if their numbers never really come into play?

I am a game designer with 20 years in the game industry, and I am writing a LitRPG-lite story. Even though I do simulate my battles so I can tell the story, I actually obfuscate all of it. I don't want my readers to go through the battle log of my character fight against a fox or wolf.

But I still use the RPG systems and elements to tell a story. Class changes are metaphor for character growth. Learning mechanics of your class is a metaphor for growing confident or competent.

I urge everyone who uses RPG stats and system to ask themselves what are you after when you use them. Then decide if you keep it or not.

I also encourage people to hit me up if you ever want to talk about the topic one on one, it'll be my pleasure to discuss it.