Should the prohibited content rules for Scribblehub be ammended to include Illegal Monetization?

[Tyranomaster]

After @SailusGebel brought it to the attention of the community that a MAJORITY of fanfictions in trending are illegally monetizing their stories, I think it's worth considering whether or not stories that are breaking copyright laws should be classified as prohibited content. We already have a rule prohibiting Mostly AI content, which would similarly fall under lack of originality. AI is a murky legal area, but copyright is pretty clear cut. Almost any of the fanfictions that are monetized could receive a DMCA request at any point. Hubs of illegal content can become legal targets under certain circumstances, and I'd prefer that SH remains operational and free from any legal costs.

Personally, I think that, unless the IP owner has given express permission to use their IP for other creative works, then these stories should be taken down. Despite many people's beliefs on the matter, most authors don't have a personal lawyer combing through all possible uses of their work to file DMCA requests. In most cases, it's only when something gets large enough does it come to the attention of companies and gets a DMCA request. I myself do weekly searches to make sure my story isn't being used without permission, and have filed DMCA requests to websites a handful of times.

In practice, allowing this content hurts readers and authors too. Any fanfic that is monetized and popular will end up unfinished. If it's low enough quality, it won't get taken down, but good ones will. The authors themselves are also opening themselves up to a legal mire too. Further, young authors may not be aware that monetization of fanfictions is illegal. They are just writing for fun, and then it gets popular. After it gets popular, they simply open up a patreon or other monetization site because it's "what everyone does/recommends".

My personal proposal would be to allow fanfics, but not allow monetization of them. If you are an author on SH, and have a story tagged with any fanfic tag (or related tag like *Naruto*), then the option to link any monetization should be disabled, and a warning should be displayed when adding the tag informing the author of the law.

I do think this is something that @Tony should consider as well, but even if he wants to allow it (which is fine btw), I am interested in what the community thinks on the matter.

Edit(2x): RoyalRoad, Wattpad, and AO3 already have monetization linking denied for fanfictions, in case anyone was wondering.

Edit3: I mentioned it mid thread, but I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, just an observation as to the current state of things.

 

[Valmond]

It should be. Tony could be held liable for allowing them to monetize FanFiction. Similarly to how translated works are a violation that can get him into hot water.

Monetization of FanFiction could put him in that seat as well.

@Tony

You might want to act on this. Nothing is wrong with FanFic’s themselves, but when money is involved. It becomes a whole other thing.

 

[AwakenFreddy]

Huh, so using patreon can get you dmca i asume because something like faster chapter or exclusive content that use other ip. Will something like kofi or patreon that doesnt have content in it or only original content that not a fanfic still get you a trouble too?

 

[RepresentingWrath]

I'm not sure where it falls. Recently Stray Cat Strut fanfics have been appearing on trending. And it's much easier to access author of Stray Cat Strut and ask if you can monetize your fanfic or not. Do people ask the author? I don't know. But let's pretend they did and the author allowed them to monetize their fanfictions. In that case, I think monetization is fine. The problem with this method is, how can you know they aren't lying? Ask for proof? What if they fake it? Ask the author of an original work?

In an ideal world, I would've loved for fanfics to have monetization if they have a permit from an original author. As is I would prefer straight up removing every fanfcic with monetization.

Lastly, will anything change? Nothing will change for an obvious reason.

 

[Wanderrae]

I don't have any bearing in this, as I don't write fanfiction but wouldn't this disrupt the traffic flow of the site, you're going to be alienating a large amount of authors, by cutting off their revenue stream. It's not like the site is guilty of directly allowing them to monetize these patreons, royalroad is guilty of this too in a sense.

 

[SanaRinomi]

It really depends on how close the fanfic follows the original timeline and if the original creators allow for it.

Case in point, Stray Cat Strut's creator even hosts fanfic contests and pays the winners.

And in terms of following the original timeline, look at Getting Warhammered, mostly does it's own thing and when someone major does come along, the MCs presence details the original timeline in the same way a freight train wrecks a car in the tracks.

Both examples I give are set in universe of the original content and also can/do host important characters of their original works.

Edit: For clarity, both these works I feel should be monetizeable. Though I understand that if a fanfic was pretty much just a retelling of the original story then it would be problematic.

 

[Valmond]

I don't have any bearing in this, as I don't write fanfiction but wouldn't this disrupt the traffic flow of the site, you're going to be alienating a large amount of authors, by cutting off their revenue stream. It's not like the site is guilty of directly allowing them to monetize these patrons, royalroad is guilty of this too in a sense.

It is not a matter of alienating, it is a matter of law at this point. FanFiction by law cannot be monetized aside from an exception like getting the OG’s permission.

If it is left to stand, it could put Tony in hot water.

 

[beast_regards]

The fan-fiction is, in itself, already illegal, i.e. violation of the copyright law, regardless if it is monetized or not.

I don't know from where the idea of "not making money" came from, but it's wrong.

You can't write fan-fiction.

If the IP owner notices it, they could submit the DCMA notice to the site and the site owner would be mandated to remove it regardless if it is monetized or not.

The IP owner could sue anyone for any reason, anyway, so if they consider a fan-fiction a threat to their profit, they would sue, even if it didn't make any money, or didn't even any views.

As long as the site terms state that they as the hosting site don't bear any kind of responsible for actions of the users and agrees to act upon DCMA notice, there is no reason to import any of your Royal Road rules.

Not that you and your site obeys that ...

Novels posted on the Royal Road are frequently monetized on the Amazon without the original author even realizing, and you do NOTHING to prevent it, so this is post is the hypocrisy of highest degree.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

The fan-fiction is, in itself, already illegal, i.e. violation of the copyright law, regardless if it is monetized or not.

I don't know from where the idea of "not making money" came from, but it's wrong.

You can't write fan-fiction.

If the IP owner notices it, they could submit the DCMA notice to the site and the site owner would be mandated to remove it regardless if it is monetized or not.

The IP owner could sue anyone for any reason, anyway, so if they consider a fan-fiction a threat to their profit, they would sue, even if it didn't make any money, or didn't even any views.

As long as the site terms state that they as the hosting site don't bear any kind of responsible for actions of the users and agrees to act upon DCMA notice, there is no reason to import any of your Royal Road rules.

Not that you and your site obeys that ...

Novels posted on the Royal Road are frequently monetized on the Amazon without the original author even realizing, and you do NOTHING to prevent it, so this is post is the hypocrisy of highest degree.

You can write fanfiction as it falls under fair use category.

 

[Empress_Omnii]

You can write fanfiction as it falls under fair use category.

And as long as it isn't meant to continue or take the place of the original work, it will fall under fair use.

 

[Tyranomaster]

It should be. Tony could be held liable for allowing them to monetize FanFiction. Similarly to how translated works are a violation that can get him into hot water.

Monetization of FanFiction could put him in that seat as well.

@Tony

You might want to act on this. Nothing is wrong with FanFic’s themselves, but when money is involved. It becomes a whole other thing.

*Usually* the only person in trouble is the author. Frequently, if they were making a substantial sum, they end up having to pay that as damages to the original IP owner (which they may have already spent that money). However, with Sailus doing the legwork, it's now public knowledge on the forum that the majority of trending fics are monetized. That puts different legal pressure on Tony. It's now known that there are a large number of them on the website, which could end up resulting in damages of a large suit being extended should some really big story get sued.

Huh, so using patreon can get you dmca i asume because something like faster chapter or exclusive content that use other ip. Will something like kofi or patreon that doesnt have content in it or only original content that not a fanfic still get you a trouble too?

Any monetization of any kind (including donations) for fanfiction is not allowed under fair use. If you, as a website, are made aware of it, it's your duty to remove it. However, you aren't responsible unless you actively flaunt the law. Sailus made it public knowledge that the law is being broken en masse, so it's kind of a legal mire now. This thread furthers that problem to a degree.

I don't have any bearing in this, as I don't write fanfiction but wouldn't this disrupt the traffic flow of the site, you're going to be alienating a large amount of authors, by cutting off their revenue stream. It's not like the site is guilty of directly allowing them to monetize these patrons, royalroad is guilty of this too in a sense.

Fanfic can stay on, but monetization should be disallowed. Blackmarket sales of opiates are also illegal, and there is a legal way to get them. Yes, people breaking the law would lose funding.

The problem is that it was made public knowledge on the forum that there is an exceptionally large amount of it, which makes any potential lawsuit hot water. It's best to put safeguards in place, and inform the authors of the change. That clears the website and Tony of any culpability. If people willfully break the rules after that, it's not his fault.

The fan-fiction is, in itself, already illegal, i.e. violation of the copyright law, regardless if it is monetized or not.

I don't know from where the idea of "not making money" came from, but it's wrong.

You can't write fan-fiction.

If the IP owner notices it, they could submit the DCMA notice to the site and the site owner would be mandated to remove it regardless if it is monetized or not.

The IP owner could sue anyone for any reason, anyway, so if they consider a fan-fiction a threat to their profit, they would sue, even if it didn't make any money, or didn't even any views.

As long as the site terms state that they as the hosting site don't bear any kind of responsible for actions of the users and agrees to act upon DCMA notice, there is no reason to import any of your Royal Road rules.

Not that you and your site obeys that ...

Novels posted on the Royal Road are frequently monetized on the Amazon without the original author even realizing, and you do NOTHING to prevent it, so this is post is the hypocrisy of highest degree.

I see you still think I'm a RR employee, despite the fact their 3 employees are well known, and I'm not one of them.

Fanfiction isn't illegal. Monetization of it is, and even when non-monetized it can still be taken down by the original IP owner, but you likely won't get in legal trouble for it in that case. When money is involved though, that money is going to end up going back to the original IP owner, even if you've already spent it.

 

[Valmond]

The fan-fiction is, in itself, already illegal, i.e. violation of the copyright law, regardless if it is monetized or not.

I don't know from where the idea of "not making money" came from, but it's wrong.

You can't write fan-fiction.

If the IP owner notices it, they could submit the DCMA notice to the site and the site owner would be mandated to remove it regardless if it is monetized or not.

The IP owner could sue anyone for any reason, anyway, so if they consider a fan-fiction a threat to their profit, they would sue, even if it didn't make any money, or didn't even any views.

As long as the site terms state that they as the hosting site don't bear any kind of responsible for actions of the users and agrees to act upon DCMA notice, there is no reason to import any of your Royal Road rules.

Not that you and your site obeys that ...

Novels posted on the Royal Road are frequently monetized on the Amazon without the original author even realizing, and you do NOTHING to prevent it, so this is post is the hypocrisy of highest degree.

Yes, that happens, but the community does look out and try to find the illegal monetization as much as they can.

They won’t catch all of it, but in the past. They have helped a lot of authors make their claim to Amazon, myself included.

There is nothing wrong with FanFic’s, but we shouldn’t put a site in harm’s way by allowing something that isn’t allowed.

 

[Rezcore]

Personally, I think that, unless the IP owner has given express permission to use their IP for other creative works, then these stories should be taken down.

This is a touchy line.

After all, they can have the link, and claim the monetization is for other projects. For the most part it becomes near impossible to say what the money is for. Even if the write is only doing a fanfiction, both he and his audience can claim the funding is for him, irregardless of the fanfiction, then the onus of proving otherwise falls to the plaintiff. But it gets better, because there is precedent for monetization of transformative usage of another's ip, that being Let's Plays and Machinimas. This is a can of worms that caused Nintendo a massive headache in 2012 and the first apocalypse on YouTube.

Should fanfiction writers earn money for their fanfiction? Fan artist can and do.

 

[Tyranomaster]

Here is a (non-exhaustive) list of popular authors stances on fanfiction that could be provided: https://fanlore.org/wiki/Professional_Author_Fanfic_Policies

 

[Valmond]

*Usually* the only person in trouble is the author. Frequently, if they were making a substantial sum, they end up having to pay that as damages to the original IP owner (which they may have already spent that money). However, with Sailus doing the legwork, it's now public knowledge on the forum that the majority of trending fics are monetized. That puts different legal pressure on Tony. It's now known that there are a large number of them on the website, which could end up resulting in damages of a large suit being extended should some really big story get sued.

This here, trending is monetized and it is clear. We don’t want Tony to get himself into any legal troubles, since that’ll affect us as well.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

I would also like to answer the elephant in the room. Why would some fanfic authors delete their non monetized work if it is fair use? Because suing a big corpo is too expensive and takes too much time. They can prove it is fair use, and they can win. It's not worth it to them. Too much time and money to prove a point, so usually they cave in. But technically they are in the right. It's big corpos abusing their money and power.

 

[beast_regards]

You can write fanfiction as it falls under fair use category.

No, it isn't.

It includes things like educational purposes, reviews and parodies ...

Even parody is on the thin ice, as are the reviews, and even those could be taken down if they aren't favourable to the original work.

In most cases, nobody notices. However, if it includes IP owned by someone like Games Workshop and Sony, they could and would sue everyone left and right. There were several cases where the GW legally attacked the fan works.

 

[Empress_Omnii]

I just hope, if this is added. That there is a system put in place to show if they have permission from the copyright holder. It shouldn't punish the fanfiction writers who do get permission to monetize.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is.

 

[Tyranomaster]

This is a touchy line.

After all, they can have the link, and claim the monetization is for other projects. For the most part it becomes near impossible to say what the money is for. Even if the write is only doing a fanfiction, both he and his audience can claim the funding is for him, irregardless of the fanfiction, then the onus of proving otherwise falls to the plaintiff. But it gets better, because there is precedent for monetization of transformative usage of another's ip, that being Let's Plays and Machinimas. This is a can of worms that caused Nintendo a massive headache in 2012 and the first apocalypse on YouTube.

Should fanfiction writers earn money for their fanfiction? Fan artist can and do.

Art using copyrighted or trademarked characters is also illegal. Nintendo notoriously issued DMCAs on Pointcrow's channel for featuring modded content of BoTW. Most company's just turn a blind eye to it because it's advertising and not worth their money to pursue, but it doesn't make it less illegal.

I think I'll come out and say it as well. I think Nintendo is the most likely company to actually try to push a wider lawsuit on the website. I've seen multiple pokemon fanfics trending that are monetized. All it takes is Nintendo saying: Hey, take all these down and provide damages, and btw, websites, you're also included in this.

No, it isn't.

It includes things like educational purposes, reviews and parodies ...

Even parody is on the thin ice, as are the reviews, and even those could be taken down if they aren't favourable to the original work.

In most cases, nobody notices. However, if it includes IP owned by someone like Games Workshop and Sony, they could and would sue everyone left and right. There were several cases where the GW legally attacked the fan works.

Yes, it is.

It really depends. US works are going to be fair use in most cases (though it would have to be determined by a judge). JP doesn't have fair use, so JP companies can send takedowns for whatever they want and generally be in the legal right. Canada usually has similar laws to the US on this sort of thing. The question becomes, "If you don't comply with a foreign lawsuit, what happens?" Most times, publishers force compliance. If Tony is made aware of a JP DMCA, then he takes down the content to avoid legal trouble. Getting the DMCA is the first step, and compliance is usually enough for them to back off. In rare cases it proceeds if the company thinks there was damages as well, which, with the rampant amount going on, they might have a good legal case for, which is my concern. It's a legal mire, and it's gotten to a pretty bad point.

By providing a simple alert to fanfiction stories that are monetized that they cannot be monetized anymore, Tony essentially washes his hands of the problem.