Does anyone else also hate how reincarnation is often handled?

[Golden_Hyde]

Reincarnation as a story trope is either served as a cheap shot to rise through top ranks in big platforms (arguably Royal Road, WebNovel and Scribble Hub) or become a fairly compelling plot device with great care and clear reasoning on the question 'why'.

So far most authors here follow the same reincarnation formula as those Japanese authors who dump nearly the same thing in Shousetsuka ni Narou. Do I hate it? I would be damned if I say 'yes', but would I avoid it? Only if it's as bad as LitRPG 'slop'—I won't be fully hating on that genre either, but please have some creativity, in either genres.

All in all, don't be afraid to innovate. Also you can use reincarnation trope in the middle of the story, as long as you know why

 

[JayMark]

Dante Alighieri described a form of reincarnation whereupon a demon soul occupied the body of a host, thus shunting the original soul to hell. This is what is happening in reincarnation stories. The reincarnated soul takes over the body whereas the original soul is shunted to hell.

And it's always hell, never heaven or another world. The lower circles of hell are the only destination for the original soul. (Usually to form a human centipede)

And yes, they always deserve it.

 

[Valmond]

Ya know, I kinda share your sentiment with that. Reincarnation is typically used as a crutch. To say, it happens and now we forget about it, usually.

Sometimes this is not the case, but in my experience. Halfway through, I just remember it is supposed to be about reincarnation. ?

One of my stories, Vita et Mors is about Reincarnation. It has two timelines it follows. The present and past. The past timeline shows how the reincarnation cycle happens, and why.

The present timeline shows the current loop. The story hints that there have been many more, but for story purposes. These two timelines are the most important ones.

At the end of the secondary timeline, you see how the current one happened. This links up right before the finale.

Reincarnation otherwise is brought up, and you get some information on it. Though, it doesn’t hold a significant value.

It is just this one story that dives into it.

 

[ThrillingHuman]

Not really. Sometimes such answers are better left unanswered as they don't fit the tone of the story.

 

[Phantonym]

Now don't get me wrong, I do think reincarnation can be great when done well, that's the same for any other trope. What I do hate is when it just forgotten about after the start of a story.
Whenever I read a story about reincarnation I always have questions. How did the person reincarnate in the 1st place? Who or what is behind it? Are there other people who have also reincarnated into that world, if not why is he/she the only one? If he/she ends up in the body of an adult, what happens to the soul of the original person, do they just vanish?
Most of the time they barely answer any of these questions. It's even motivated me to write my own reincarnation story to answer all of these.
Overall this is just my opinion and it's okay to disagree with it. I just want to know if anyone else has felt the same.

Makes me think of the greatest real estate developer where

Spoiler: Spoiler

they meet the bodies old soul later

 

[Scaletalon]

Ya know, I kinda share your sentiment with that. Reincarnation is typically used as a crutch. To say, it happens and now we forget about it, usually.

Yeah it does feel like that at times ?. There are only a select few that I invested myself in. One was a discontinued novel called Villain's Royal Blood where the mc was reincarnated into the body of a baby princess by an angel. The angel's motivations are left a mystery for now but it did touch on how the original soul of princess body that the mc inhabited is still there but now resides in the mind as an adult that the mc comes in contact with, and the longer the mc lives , the more the original soul would fade away.

 

[Phantonym]

I am starting a novel that kind of uses reincarnation you can read the description/synopsis to see how I handle reincarnation. I only have the prologue out so far tho. I'm sorry for shamelessly advertising... The novel is in my signature.
I literally posted the prologue today

 

[Clo]

I think reincarnation can be a super interesting topic to study via your protagonists.

If anyone here as seen the excellent (but old) movie Dark City, one of the main question raised by this movie is:

"Are humans more than the sum of their memories?"

If you wake up in someone else's body (you have their brain), and you have all their memories, just how much of the old "you" still is there? How much power do you have over the body?

Will other people instantly recognise you are a new person, or will they treat you as if you had always been this way? Are you even able to convince anyone you aren't who they think you are?

It can lead to interesting questions. Is the old person still there, like a facet of a plural system? Did you just start fronting and pushed them away? Can they punt you and take over again? Can you co-habitate the body and learn to live together?

I don't explicitly use reincarnation in my new novel, State of the Art, but I address all those topics, because the characters my protagonists inhabit in the VRMMO they play come with an entire life worth of memories.

And the players often have trouble deciding how to deal with that.

And some of them bring some of it outside of the game when they log out.

 

[Valmond]

Yeah it does feel like that at times ?. There are only a select few that I invested myself in. One was a discontinued novel called Villain's Royal Blood where the mc was reincarnated into the body of a baby princess by an angel. The angel's motivations are left a mystery for now but it did touch on how the original soul of princess body that the mc inhabited is still there but now resides in the mind as an adult that the mc comes in contact with, and the longer the mc lives , the more the original soul would fade away.

By the way, if you want to play a game that focuses on Reincarnation. It would be Valkyrie Profile 1 and 2.

The first game more than two. However, the first game you would need a guide to get the A Ending, which is used for the sequel. Sequel has one ending, so no guide needed there.

When I say you need a guide for the first game, the steps are so damn insane. That you can miss it right out from the start of the game. ?

You have to proceed in a certain order, and at certain times. Going to places too soon can mess up the whole process.

 

[Clo]

It would be Valkyrie Profile 1 and 2.

But Lenneth doesn't do reincarnation at all in VP1? She captures dead souls and train them.

Sylmaria, however, absolutely deals with reincarnation and second chances.

Difference between the valkyrie of the past, present, and future.

Also, so happy to stumble on someone else familiar with this gem. I just platinumed it on my ps5 like a month ago (and still own my ps1 copy from way back)

 

[Thraben]

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but from both writing and reading perspectives, I can tell you from experience that the readers don't like reincarnation being anything more than an excuse for anime nonsense, as far as the common denominator is concerned.

 

[Valmond]

But Lenneth doesn't do reincarnation at all in VP1? She captures dead souls and train them.

Sylmaria, however, absolutely deals with reincarnation and second chances.

Difference between the valkyrie of the past, present, and future.

Also, so happy to stumble on someone else familiar with this gem. I just platinumed it on my ps5 like a month ago (and still own my ps1 copy from way back)

Maybe I have that reversed lol. I do remember in VP 1, it mentions the reincarnation process, the Sovereign’s Rite.

As well as the rebirth process. I remember in the prologue, you see Lenneth in a previous life before she becomes a Valkyrie.

You see Arngrim, Mystina, in the past during Hrist attack.

The Sovereign’s Rite, which is Valkyrie Rebirth was used on Lenneth. She was supposed to go back into the cycle, but did not.

The purpose of the souls were to be trained, and sent to Valhalla, and when their requirements were filled, they would then go into the cycle.

The A Ending after Ragnarok when Lenneth’s upgrade happens, is when you see her advance the cycle.

VP 2, doesn’t typically mention this as much. You are aware of the souls. And they have a feature, where you release characters, and may find them later.

Though, this isn’t necessarily a focus, far from it. And is often forgotten about due to needing them for Seraphic Gate grind.

The Sovereign’s Rite is explained better in this game, the process of Valkyrie Rebirth. And isn’t necessarily about second chances, but to oppose Odin.

They were Silmeria’s allies.

Reincarnation was definitely a theme, but wasn’t focused on much. The ending though, was where you got a good look at it.

With the three Valkyries going back into the cycle, and you see Alicia in a new life.

 

[Clo]

Ah, right. You could see Lenneth as Platina's reincarnation or vice versa.

But unless you get the special ending (which continues beautifully in VP2), Lenneth isn't associated with reincarnation or creation, she's just a collector of the dead.

Anyway, fantastic series, and does make you think about topics like life, death and rebirth quite a bit.

I always assumed Llewlelyn and Mystina were just recycled sprites for the events in the past, since neither of them show up in VP2, but you do have an archer with you...

Angrim, however, yeah, he really was there. But he's his own mess of weirdness.

 

[Phantonym]

I think reincarnation can be a super interesting topic to study via your protagonists.

If anyone here as seen the excellent (but old) movie Dark City, one of the main question raised by this movie is:

"Are humans more than the sum of their memories?"

If you wake up in someone else's body (you have their brain), and you have all their memories, just how much of the old "you" still is there? How much power do you have over the body?

Will other people instantly recognise you are a new person, or will they treat you as if you had always been this way? Are you even able to convince anyone you aren't who they think you are?

It can lead to interesting questions. Is the old person still there, like a facet of a plural system? Did you just start fronting and pushed them away? Can they punt you and take over again? Can you co-habitate the body and learn to live together?

I don't explicitly use reincarnation in my new novel, State of the Art, but I address all those topics, because the characters my protagonists inhabit in the VRMMO they play come with an entire life worth of memories.

And the players often have trouble deciding how to deal with that.

And some of them bring some of it outside of the game when they log out.

This is the synopsis of the novel I am starting, what do you think about the way I am doing “reincarnation”


The world burned, the god laughed, and the god was punished.





Malroth, the God of War, wreaks havoc on the continent of Avon and causes many innocent people to die, Malroth has no remorse and sees people as puny ants or toys to be played with and broken. The other gods agree that Malroth has gone too far and must be stopped and punished. Once the other gods agree they band together and seal the gods power causing him to be sent down to start a life on the continent he once wreaked havoc on as a weak and insignificant slave.





Will he live honorably and earn his place among the Gods once more? Will he find happiness in a life where he is loved rather than feared? Or will he resign to his fate and live out a pitiful life of a weak insignificant boy below those he once labeled puny and insignificant.

 

[Clo]

Will he live honorably and earn his place among the Gods once more?

I am personally uninterested in it at first reading (As a fan of catgirls, I actually prefered that pitch, ah!)

But here is why: because the God of War is getting punished for being a huge jerk in the first place, I don't want him to succesfully return to his old self.

I also don't want to read a story where he would never "escape" his situation, either, because that sounds sad and hopeless.

So if it's a story about he can become a better person, then that is more palatable to me.

But then my question is : why start from a God? It makes it harder for me to connect; I am not a God, I don't know how it feels to be one, and to get stripped of a power I have never had.

A story about someone growing to become a better person after being a terrible one is common. Heck, the movie "Swtich" is pretty much exactly that.

But the flawed protagonit is human. It's possible for a reader to imagine themselves in those shoes.

It also makes sense when he (she) uses all the wrong methods at first to redeem himself. It takes a while for him to change his ways. But that's human.

Seeing a God change their very nature seems more far-fetched. Gods represents core concepts, and having one go through a phase of reinventing themselves could be interesting, if it was self-inflicted.

But by having others punish him instead, you make him a victim.

Ask yourself, how is the reader supposed to feel about the God's current predicament?

Joy? Sadness? Pity?

Write the story you want, but try to think about what your story is trying to teach or show.

What is the lesson in your novel? Redemption? Revenge?

Or is it just a story about torture, and the reader will just endlessly read how the god resents those who struck him low?

If you make the God more likeable and humanize him, then the reader may relate. But as it is, I just think he got what he deserves, and like I said, I don't want to see him escape or win.

 

[Phantonym]

I am personally uninterested in it at first reading (As a fan of catgirls, I actually prefered that pitch, ah!)

But here is why: because the God of War is getting punished for being a huge jerk in the first place, I don't want him to succesfully return to his old self.

I also don't want to read a story where he would never "escape" his situation, either, because that sounds sad and hopeless.

So if it's a story about he can become a better person, then that is more palatable to me.

But then my question is : why start from a God? It makes it harder for me to connect; I am not a God, I don't know how it feels to be one, and to get stripped of a power I have never had.

A story about someone growing to become a better person after being a terrible one is common. Heck, the movie "Swtich" is pretty much exactly that.

But the flawed protagonit is human. It's possible for a reader to imagine themselves in those shoes.

It also makes sense when he (she) uses all the wrong methods at first to redeem himself. It takes a while for him to change his ways. But that's human.

Seeing a God change their very nature seems more far-fetched. Gods represents core concepts, and having one go through a phase of reinventing themselves could be interesting, if it was self-inflicted.

But by having others punish him instead, you make him a victim.

Ask yourself, how is the reader supposed to feel about the God's current predicament?

Joy? Sadness? Pity?

Write the story you want, but try to think about what your story is trying to teach or show.

What is the lesson in your novel? Redemption? Revenge?

Or is it just a story about torture, and the reader will just endlessly read how the god resents those who struck him low?

If you make the God more likeable and humanize him, then the reader may relate. But as it is, I just think he got what he deserves, and like I said, I don't want to see him escape or win.

I never thought about it that way before! Thanks for the feedback. I published the prologue today and that is a war scene. Here it is if you want to read it https://www.scribblehub.com/read/1389504-a-gods-punishment/chapter/1391449/

 

[Clo]

I never thought about it that way before! Thanks for the feedback. I published the prologue today and that is a war scene. Here it is if you want to read it https://www.scribblehub.com/read/1389504-a-gods-punishment/chapter/1391449/

I checked it out already, although only by skimming, since I am working.

I don't vibe with 1st person narrator, myself, but that is absolutely a question of taste.

 

[Phantonym]

I checked it out already, although only by skimming, since I am working.

I don't vibe with 1st person narrator, myself, but that is absolutely a question of taste.

Thanks for checking it out and giving feedback!

 

[Valmond]

Ah, right. You could see Lenneth as Platina's reincarnation or vice versa.

But unless you get the special ending (which continues beautifully in VP2), Lenneth isn't associated with reincarnation or creation, she's just a collector of the dead.

Anyway, fantastic series, and does make you think about topics like life, death and rebirth quite a bit.

I always assumed Llewlelyn and Mystina were just recycled sprites for the events in the past, since neither of them show up in VP2, but you do have an archer with you...

Angrim, however, yeah, he really was there. But he's his own mess of weirdness.

Yeah, VP 1 is the reason why I don’t like multiple endings. It really makes things into a mess with continuations. ?

Love the series though.

For VP 2, I think it might be a continuation error, or because of Lezard’s interference.

Either way, the timeline truly changes when Silmeria doesn’t get saved by Brahms, so things get separated into an alternate one I think.

 

[Clo]

Thanks for checking it out and giving feedback!

I wouldn't call that proper feedback. I might do that later, in the feedback channel.

Good luck with your story though.

I thought I would hate the Thor movie on the MCU because the protagonist is a God.

But then I had forgotten how Norse Gods are inherently flawed and human. And the actor helped a lot.