I think there is a hole in my world building

Tatsuo

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I have made a mistake in my story,
I didn't thought of the currency system in my world building properly and now I want to add a new one so I am thinking of deleting my chapters where I introduced the currency.

Here is my currency system:

25 Crimson Coins = 1 Crescent Coin
50 Crescent Coins = 1 Celestial Coin

Crescent Coins are the standard for everyday transactions.
Celestial Coins are rare and valuable, likely used for high-status purchases, land, or large trade deals.

Luxury meal and room costs 15 Crimson Coins. The price includes food (high-quality meals), a room for the night, and possibly some additional amenities.

Where as wages are:
Lower Class: 3 Crescent Coins/week
Middle Class: 6 Crescent Coins/week
Higher Class: 9 Crescent Coins/week

A standard inn costs 5 Crimson coins:

Room for the night: 1 Crimson Coins.
Morning meal: 2 Crimson Coin.
Evening meal: 2 Crimson Coins.

Does this seem reasonable?
 

ElijahRyne

A Hermit that’s NOT that Lazy, currentlycomplainen
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I have made a mistake in my story,
I didn't thought of the currency system in my world building properly and now I want to add a new one so I am thinking of deleting my chapters where I introduced the currency.

Here is my currency system:

25 Crimson Coins = 1 Crescent Coin
50 Crescent Coins = 1 Celestial Coin

Crescent Coins are the standard for everyday transactions.
Celestial Coins are rare and valuable, likely used for high-status purchases, land, or large trade deals.

Luxury meal and room costs 15 Crimson Coins. The price includes food (high-quality meals), a room for the night, and possibly some additional amenities.

Where as wages are:
Lower Class: 3 Crescent Coins/week
Middle Class: 6 Crescent Coins/week
Higher Class: 9 Crescent Coins/week

A standard inn costs 5 Crimson coins:

Room for the night: 1 Crimson Coins.
Morning meal: 2 Crimson Coin.
Evening meal: 2 Crimson Coins.

Does this seem reasonable?
Kinda of, you expect the prices/wages to change depending on the location. Another question to ask is: what is the economic system? Is it a heavily guild regulated feudal economy, a mercantile economy, a capitalist economy, a socialist economy or some sort of mixed economy?
 

Tatsuo

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Kinda of, you expect the prices/wages to change depending on the location. Another question to ask is: what is the economic system? Is it a heavily guild regulated feudal economy, a mercantile economy, a capitalist economy, a socialist economy or some sort of mixed economy?
Regulated Economy of an Empire.
I expect Wages to stay consistent and
Prices to vary from places to places, like Areas rich in natural resources (e.g., agricultural regions or mining towns).
 

HypnoticNovels

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I think the prices seem pretty reasonable? Maybe even on the cheap side from a quick glance :unsure: Still, as a reader, having two currency things with such similar names would confuse the heck out of me :blob_sweat: maybe I'm just not used to it or half asleep, but I was having a hard time just trying to compare those prices with the wages.

Crimson, Cresent, Celestial :blob_no: I'd probably make it something like redish, moon-y, and star-y lol
 

ElijahRyne

A Hermit that’s NOT that Lazy, currentlycomplainen
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Regulated Economy of an Empire.
I expect Wages to stay consistent and
Prices to vary from places to places, like Areas rich in natural resources (e.g., agricultural regions or mining towns).
(Just to help you brainstorm.)
There are many different types of imperial economies, some where slave economies like Rome. Some were Feudal like the Mughal empire. Some empires were capitalist like the British Empire. In all of these there are different classes and class structures, so what are they?

How do they interact in your empire‘s class structure?
Is there class mobility, if so/not what is the degree?
Are there areas with more/less class mobility?
Who make up the ruling class(es)?
How has history affected the class structure?
How do the lower classes live?
How would you define the class conflict in your empire?
How does the middle class tend to make their living?
Are there any religious classes?

Just ask if you want more questions to help you brainstorm.
 

John_Owl

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And this is why I keep it simple. multiples of 100 for me, and I use the standard (maybe boring by this point) silver/gold, with a low quality metal as the first step (usually copper or bronze, but I've also used Iron, because the empire was known for iron and had a major surplus).

Further, I really only go in depth on wages and costs when relevant, otherwise I use vague terms. things like "He paid", rather than "He had 15 copper, check the prices of the inn and saw a room was 10. that would leave him 5. 'man, I really need new gear, but I also don't want to camp for the night...' he mumbled to himself."

that said, it does LOOK balanced but feel a little off. I'd say try and find real world examples and convert prices to your currency, then see how wages stack up against it using something that is cheap for a single one and isn't questionable (cheese is a bad baseline, apples are a good baseline). How much would an apple cost in your world? how much do they cost for you IRL? That would translate to what value? Now that you have a baseline, go from there. What is your empire's economy built on - i.e. farming, mining, military, etc. How does the EMPIRE make it's money. Because the economy tends to dribble down from the top. If the EMPIRE makes it's money mining, metals would be cheaper. If they import fruits, apples would be more expensive.

adjust as such, and it should at least be a fair approximation. I may not be able to build a language, but I can sure as hell build an economy.
 

Tatsuo

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(Just to help you brainstorm.)
There are many different types of imperial economies, some where slave economies like Rome. Some were Feudal like the Mughal empire. Some empires were capitalist like the British Empire. In all of these there are different classes and class structures, so what are they?

How do they interact in your empire‘s class structure?
Is there class mobility, if so/not what is the degree?
Are there areas with more/less class mobility?
Who make up the ruling class(es)?
How has history affected the class structure?
How do the lower classes live?
How would you define the class conflict in your empire?
How does the middle class tend to make their living?
Are there any religious classes?

Just ask if you want more questions to help you brainstorm.
? okay
 

Corty

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Our AI mastermind's opinion:

Suggestions for Refining the Currency System:​

  1. Reassess Value Ratios
    • Current Conversion: 25 Crimson Coins = 1 Crescent Coin, and 50 Crescent Coins = 1 Celestial Coin.
    • Potential Issue:These large gaps may create unrealistic jumps in purchasing power. Consider adjusting the ratios slightly:
      • Example: 10 Crimson = 1 Crescent; 20 Crescent = 1 Celestial. This narrows the gap and allows for more granularity in pricing.
  2. Adjust Costs to Match Wages
    • The wages and prices don't align perfectly. For instance:
      • A lower-class worker earns 3 Crescent Coins per week, which equals 75 Crimson Coins under the current system.
      • Renting a standard inn room (1 Crimson Coin/night) would cost only 7 Crimson Coins for a week—a small fraction of their earnings.
    • Recommendation:Increase the cost of goods and services slightly to reflect realistic expenses:
      • Luxury meal and room: 30-40 Crimson Coins.
      • Standard inn room and meals: 8-10 Crimson Coins total per night.
  3. Include Common Goods for Reference
    • To add depth, outline prices for everyday items like bread, clothing, tools, or transport. This gives readers a better sense of the economy and what "expensive" or "affordable" means.
      • Example:
        • Bread loaf: 1-2 Crimson Coins.
        • Basic cloak: 10 Crimson Coins.
        • Wagon repair: 3 Crescent Coins.
  4. Define Regional or Social Variances
    • Maybe Crimson Coins are widely used in rural areas, while Crescents dominate urban centers. Celestial Coins could serve as interregional currency or noble wealth. This adds flavor to the world-building without overhauling your system.
  5. Ensure Inflation and Bartering Exist
    • Inflation or regional scarcity can impact values. For example, a room might cost 1 Crimson Coin in one area but 3 Crimson Coins in another due to demand or local hardship.

Reason to Keep Existing Chapters:​

Instead of deleting, revise references to currency in already-written chapters to match the updated system. Consider the following steps:

  • Identify Specific Mentions: Look for explicit mentions of costs or wages.
  • Reframe Using New Values: Adjust prices slightly to align with the refined system. Readers rarely notice minor revisions unless explicitly told.
  • Explain Changes Subtly:Introduce a character’s perspective or dialogue to clarify the economic norms. For example:
    • "Fifteen Crimson Coins for a luxury meal and room? Sounds steep, but it’s worth it for this level of service," said a merchant, grumbling as he handed over the coins.*
 

JHarp

Cognitohazard in a Cat Disguise
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Luxury meal and room costs 15 Crimson Coins. The price includes food (high-quality meals), a room for the night, and possibly some additional amenities.

Where as wages are:
Lower Class: 3 Crescent Coins/week
Middle Class: 6 Crescent Coins/week
Higher Class: 9 Crescent Coins/week

A standard inn costs 5 Crimson coins:

Room for the night: 1 Crimson Coins.
Morning meal: 2 Crimson Coin.
Evening meal: 2 Crimson Coins.

Does this seem reasonable?

As someone who has dealt a bit more with currencies, information and otherwise; maybe not to the level of some people in this place but it has mattered a lot in my main worldbuilding.

You need to give different answers for those numbers you use.

Lets keep that ratio you said, 25:1 and 50:1, that means the full ratio is about 1250:50:1
I'm going to rename them just so they are easier to tell apart for a minute, sorry but it's slightly less brainpower to dedicate on coins that share the same first 2-3 letters of 'C, E & R' with an i&L mix

So 1250 Red, 50 Moon, 1 Sky. Equalling Crimson, Crescent and Celestial.
You state Moon are for 'everyday transactions' and Sky coins are for 'high status' stuff.


Lets ask a few establishing questions for you to reply to:
What is the lowest amount of money you would need to live on for a day, you claim a 'lower class' wage is 3 moon, or 75 red coins, so that assumes about 10 red coins/day for wages.

Ignoring how the wages wouldn't be linear 3/6/9 and more likely to be multiplicative, such as 5/25/125
That means at the base price, market stalls need to sell their ingredients at a few Red coins per item, a loaf of bread or some fruit, marking up 2-4 Red coins on average.
This is before labour costs and everything else, including that there would be mark-up due to it being cooked for them and the inn being a place you would assume people go when they don't have a house of their own. The price would be 6-10 red coins at minimum for a meal.

Now the main issue; which I assume is a typo; hence me renaming the coins for this example, is the fact you state a luxury room is 15 crimson/red coins per day, but it only costs 2-4 crimson/red coins for an apple or loaf of bread.
Otherwise that implies a person of lower class, can save up 105 red coins, when they earn 75 a week, to earn a luxury room.

Luxury should be targeting high earners, and require months of wages for lower members of society to spend a few days in the place.
Private rooms would be significantly more expensive, please keep in mind, including the fact 'fantasy inns' and the like are incorrect, that people can usually pay to sleep in the main room near the fireplace or hearth for a cheaper cost and the like. But even then they already cater to middle class with merchants, travellers and the like.
Lower class would be communal housing and other things including sleeping outside to save money, budgets should be tighter and not a nice room to themselves with a meal prepped for them.


Lets go for the other direction then.
To mobilise a group of random farmers, or whoever you have arbitrarily decided as 'lower class', that would be 3 moon coins per week for wages.
Now if you were to want say, 100 people to hire for a month, 4 weeks; that would be 1200 moon coins, equalling 24 sky coins
Considering a population of a city ends up in the thousands, if not tens of thousands, you wouldn't even be able to mobilise the lower class unless you had hundreds of sky coins in value to spend.

Military tends to get paid a higher wage to encourage them to do their jobs, in a medium city of 10,000 you could expect around 30-100 people hired, so at minimum you might be paying 30 sky coins, per month to maintain even basic public order, especially since you would need even more to maintain public order and any sort of main richer trade location or merchant republic would have higher prices due to the investment in the job itself; and then upkeep, the buildings and equipment, their meals which would generally be provided and whatever along with any staff you need to maintain the location.

Even a small noble would have at least 30 staff for wherever they live, with large noble houses hitting 100-300 people in their staff team.



If I had to recommend a fix, try spacing things out based on the value you would understand the society you are using to have.

Place 'ingredient price' such as fruit, bread and other food items, as low as a few small coins.
Place low grade clothing to be at least 20-30x the value of that food.

Place metal goods in general, as the start of your second currency, where copper/bronze and maybe iron goods might appear, enough that a small household could save up for a few weeks and get a single copper knife for general use but not easily buy a large amount of materials
Same goes for all household cooking items, pots and the like, these are one time buys usually that will last years, hence their markup usually being on the edge of what lower class can afford. Farm tools and the like also factor in here.

After placing basic metal goods at the bottom of the second tier of currency, markup any metal weapons and gear another 20x the price of any pots you might sell, military level goods would require a higher prices for regulation. This means by your current values, a single sword might cost 60 moon/crescent coins, or 1500 red/crimson coins

Once you have an idea of these goods, ask yourself how much a merchant can carry. For pots, pans and other metalware for lower class, merchants, the 'middle class' who are bulk buying, need to be capable of buying at least 10-20 of an item at those prices, if the merchant doesn't have a budget enough to buy even half their stock, there is something potentially wrong with your balancing of currencies.

And after that, ask yourself how much it would cost to hire a full group of 100-300 lower class people, giving them food and tools to say; dig a road for 2 weeks between your newly built manor and the city, keeping in mind extra costs for material logistics, carts and otherwise. With prices now scaling into sky/celestial coins, needing 30 coins for a project for 100 workers for 2 weeks plus food, tools and the like; you either need something above that, or to redistribute the value of the coins slightly for any project larger than a small road.
 

Tatsuo

An Aspiring Idea Guy
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As someone who has dealt a bit more with currencies, information and otherwise; maybe not to the level of some people in this place but it has mattered a lot in my main worldbuilding.

You need to give different answers for those numbers you use.

Lets keep that ratio you said, 25:1 and 50:1, that means the full ratio is about 1250:50:1
I'm going to rename them just so they are easier to tell apart for a minute, sorry but it's slightly less brainpower to dedicate on coins that share the same first 2-3 letters of 'C, E & R' with an i&L mix

So 1250 Red, 50 Moon, 1 Sky. Equalling Crimson, Crescent and Celestial.
You state Moon are for 'everyday transactions' and Sky coins are for 'high status' stuff.


Lets ask a few establishing questions for you to reply to:
What is the lowest amount of money you would need to live on for a day, you claim a 'lower class' wage is 3 moon, or 75 red coins, so that assumes about 10 red coins/day for wages.

Ignoring how the wages wouldn't be linear 3/6/9 and more likely to be multiplicative, such as 5/25/125
That means at the base price, market stalls need to sell their ingredients at a few Red coins per item, a loaf of bread or some fruit, marking up 2-4 Red coins on average.
This is before labour costs and everything else, including that there would be mark-up due to it being cooked for them and the inn being a place you would assume people go when they don't have a house of their own. The price would be 6-10 red coins at minimum for a meal.

Now the main issue; which I assume is a typo; hence me renaming the coins for this example, is the fact you state a luxury room is 15 crimson/red coins per day, but it only costs 2-4 crimson/red coins for an apple or loaf of bread.
Otherwise that implies a person of lower class, can save up 105 red coins, when they earn 75 a week, to earn a luxury room.

Luxury should be targeting high earners, and require months of wages for lower members of society to spend a few days in the place.
Private rooms would be significantly more expensive, please keep in mind, including the fact 'fantasy inns' and the like are incorrect, that people can usually pay to sleep in the main room near the fireplace or hearth for a cheaper cost and the like. But even then they already cater to middle class with merchants, travellers and the like.
Lower class would be communal housing and other things including sleeping outside to save money, budgets should be tighter and not a nice room to themselves with a meal prepped for them.


Lets go for the other direction then.
To mobilise a group of random farmers, or whoever you have arbitrarily decided as 'lower class', that would be 3 moon coins per week for wages.
Now if you were to want say, 100 people to hire for a month, 4 weeks; that would be 1200 moon coins, equalling 24 sky coins
Considering a population of a city ends up in the thousands, if not tens of thousands, you wouldn't even be able to mobilise the lower class unless you had hundreds of sky coins in value to spend.

Military tends to get paid a higher wage to encourage them to do their jobs, in a medium city of 10,000 you could expect around 30-100 people hired, so at minimum you might be paying 30 sky coins, per month to maintain even basic public order, especially since you would need even more to maintain public order and any sort of main richer trade location or merchant republic would have higher prices due to the investment in the job itself; and then upkeep, the buildings and equipment, their meals which would generally be provided and whatever along with any staff you need to maintain the location.

Even a small noble would have at least 30 staff for wherever they live, with large noble houses hitting 100-300 people in their staff team.



If I had to recommend a fix, try spacing things out based on the value you would understand the society you are using to have.

Place 'ingredient price' such as fruit, bread and other food items, as low as a few small coins.
Place low grade clothing to be at least 20-30x the value of that food.

Place metal goods in general, as the start of your second currency, where copper/bronze and maybe iron goods might appear, enough that a small household could save up for a few weeks and get a single copper knife for general use but not easily buy a large amount of materials
Same goes for all household cooking items, pots and the like, these are one time buys usually that will last years, hence their markup usually being on the edge of what lower class can afford. Farm tools and the like also factor in here.

After placing basic metal goods at the bottom of the second tier of currency, markup any metal weapons and gear another 20x the price of any pots you might sell, military level goods would require a higher prices for regulation. This means by your current values, a single sword might cost 60 moon/crescent coins, or 1500 red/crimson coins

Once you have an idea of these goods, ask yourself how much a merchant can carry. For pots, pans and other metalware for lower class, merchants, the 'middle class' who are bulk buying, need to be capable of buying at least 10-20 of an item at those prices, if the merchant doesn't have a budget enough to buy even half their stock, there is something potentially wrong with your balancing of currencies.

And after that, ask yourself how much it would cost to hire a full group of 100-300 lower class people, giving them food and tools to say; dig a road for 2 weeks between your newly built manor and the city, keeping in mind extra costs for material logistics, carts and otherwise. With prices now scaling into sky/celestial coins, needing 30 coins for a project for 100 workers for 2 weeks plus food, tools and the like; you either need something above that, or to redistribute the value of the coins slightly for any project larger than a small road.
Hmm you are right.
Maybe I am too fixated on not making it too difficult for lower class to enjoy luxuries.
 

JHarp

Cognitohazard in a Cat Disguise
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Hmm you are right.
Maybe I am too fixated on not making it too difficult for lower class to enjoy luxuries.

I'm not against making some things accessible, but the pacing of currencies, such as merchants needing to bulk buy what lower class peasants need to save up, in an a household of 3-4 minimum people; to buy one tool needs to be consistent, otherwise what stops someone from saving up for a short while through living on the street and skipping a few meals, to suddenly jump up to the next class level. Saving and investing wouldn't be common in the 1500s and earlier, and skipping meals isn't effective since malnutrition is already an issue.

There are a lot of upkeep and costs, bribes and rent that a merchant might have to pay that a lower class might skip out on for living in the street or in communal housing and the like. On top of Inns being very fantasy-skewed, with them trying to portray them as efficient, when they are business catering to people who can afford it. Merchant guilds are a major factor because they handle a lot of the hurdles and that requires contacts and information, for you to know people and in the real world; to speak extra languages so you could travel between places, sponsorship, proof of skill and a lot of other conditions.

People also have misconceptions, sometimes forgetting that if you are traveller, you would actually be able to generally find space to sleep in someones house back in some of those times, in exchange for stories, information and who you know, because there is value in knowing those things. People would have to change a lot of how they act depending on the difference in class, compared to what we have now a days there is a major distinction depending on how far back your setting goes. Class and trust factors a lot into it and it highly depends on if the small village can even afford the spare bedding for a traveller, hospitality is provided based on provided value. Especially once you bring culture into it since some places value it more than others.

Inns would be tiered accommodations, have limited rooms to rent out and serve people higher up, those people in the common room around the hearth are more likely to be the guards of the merchants than some random peasant. There are very much class divides and you would not speak with someone in a different class unless it was transactional.
 

CharlesEBrown

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The question I'm surprised nobody has asked: How much does this figure in to your story? If it's just something that comes up in passing, don't sweat the details. If the story is all about economics of scale and scarcity society, then you need to dig in deeper and research theories and historical models.
 

JHarp

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The question I'm surprised nobody has asked: How much does this figure in to your story? If it's just something that comes up in passing, don't sweat the details. If the story is all about economics of scale and scarcity society, then you need to dig in deeper and research theories and historical models.

Arguably it mattered enough for them to consider deleting chapters concerning it for a rewrite and to then post on the forum about feedback to work on it.
You are right though and that should have been the establishing question; not everyone needs the background details of their story to be coherent, knowing how many coins a main character carries 24/7 doesn't always help build the story up further.

I suppose the term cognitive blind spot would be the phrase of the day for this post.
 

RedMuffin

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I think there is a hole in my world building
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Empress_Omnii

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I don't care to dig too deep into economic systems in novels. But you should know that without any additional expenses low case make about 1.66 celestial coins in a regular working year. The higher class only makes 7.90, but with a luxury and meals, they only make 4.99.
Though there are likely many additional costs, but with just what you mentioned. It takes 60 years with the easiest job to earn 100 celestial coins. High class with luxury only make that much every 20.

JHarp gave a great suggestion, but hopefully this shows why the class wages should be multiplicative.
 
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