Shower thoughts on isekai magic systems.

RecursiveDescent

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So I was just thinking, and then my mind exploded.
I suddenly questioned why so many isekai magic systems based around 'skills' call them 'skills'.

Isn't like the whole point of them that they take literally no skill to use and that they bypass the need to actually get good by just repeating a task or leveling up?

At that point it's a miracle anyone in those worlds know how to do anything themselves.
 

laccoff_mawning

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Indeed. I expect that most Isekais take the "skill" idea from videogames. But the problem is that the "skill" from videogames comes from "skill" in real life.

Now, Isekai novels aren't videogames, nor should they emulate videogames. (unless your novel is a game, and the "reader" is plays through your novel in some interactive way, I guess?). Anyway, apart from some very niche circumstances, novels should attempt to emulate real life.

For example, even if the premise of the novel is that the MC gets isekaied into a game world, the world is usually still meant to be a "real world", if that makes sense. So you have to choose what parts of the world behaves like a game and behaves like reality, right? Then a part of the game that emulates reality (the "skills"), should realistically belong to the "reality" part of the novel, not the game part, right?

I wont say its impossible to come up with a circumstance that makes "skills" interesting, since almost any (if not every) premise is possible to make interesting through a well thought-out plan. However, I think the reason we see "skills" so much in isekai is more due to a lack of thought in worldbuilding.
 

CarburetorThompson

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Yeah levels and leveling up by killing things are really lazy imo and make no sense in terms of world building.

A trope I like is levels being a tool to measure someone’s strength, instead of being strength itself. You’re not strong because your power level is over 9000, your power level is over 900 because you are strong. Still that system can be bad if used in excess, but I think it has much less problems when compared to the alternative.

Also manifest destiny divine right class/job assignments are stupid. It’s not even like skills and levels, there are no (good) video games that have that as a feature. I don’t know how it got associated with game inspired world building. It’s just stupid and makes it feel like any free will a character has is a big illusion
 

RepresentingPride

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Indeed. I expect that most Isekais take the "skill" idea from videogames. But the problem is that the "skill" from videogames comes from "skill" in real life.

Now, Isekai novels aren't videogames, nor should they emulate videogames. (unless your novel is a game, and the "reader" is plays through your novel in some interactive way, I guess?). Anyway, apart from some very niche circumstances, novels should attempt to emulate real life.

For example, even if the premise of the novel is that the MC gets isekaied into a game world, the world is usually still meant to be a "real world", if that makes sense. So you have to choose what parts of the world behaves like a game and behaves like reality, right? Then a part of the game that emulates reality (the "skills"), should realistically belong to the "reality" part of the novel, not the game part, right?

I wont say its impossible to come up with a circumstance that makes "skills" interesting, since almost any (if not every) premise is possible to make interesting through a well thought-out plan. However, I think the reason we see "skills" so much in isekai is more due to a lack of thought in worldbuilding.
It depend the isekai, but mostly the ones who use the skills/levels system use the gods of the world as an excuse. The gods made those rules, either before or after some earthling come into their world with their experience of games.
 

Assurbanipal_II

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So I was just thinking, and then my mind exploded.
I suddenly questioned why so many isekai magic systems based around 'skills' call them 'skills'.

Isn't like the whole point of them that they take literally no skill to use and that they bypass the need to actually get good by just repeating a task or leveling up?

At that point it's a miracle anyone in those worlds know how to do anything themselves.
:blob_cookie: A skill is a formulaic process. So if the magic systems is governed by logic, there will be skills evidently.
 

Keene

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So I was just thinking, and then my mind exploded.
I suddenly questioned why so many isekai magic systems based around 'skills' call them 'skills'.

Isn't like the whole point of them that they take literally no skill to use and that they bypass the need to actually get good by just repeating a task or leveling up?

At that point it's a miracle anyone in those worlds know how to do anything themselves.

So you're saying the problem is a skill issue?

:blob_sir:
 

Hans.Trondheim

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So I was just thinking, and then my mind exploded.
I suddenly questioned why so many isekai magic systems based around 'skills' call them 'skills'.

Isn't like the whole point of them that they take literally no skill to use and that they bypass the need to actually get good by just repeating a task or leveling up?

At that point it's a miracle anyone in those worlds know how to do anything themselves.
Tis pretty similar to how many MMORPGs from early 00s refer to spells as 'skills'. And the name stuck, so there we have it on isekai, especially those that combined the former to litRPGs.

Everything supernatural is called skill even though it's a cheat spell that can obliterate an entire world at a flick of a finger.

Also, I forgot to add that 'skills' in technical sense are those tasks you repeatedly did so that it is muscle memory. So you're definition of skills being tasks just repeated isn't far off.

Heck my illustration skills won't improve if I didn't repeatedly draw stuff since I was in 5th grade.
 
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Vnator

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Yeah levels and leveling up by killing things are really lazy imo and make no sense in terms of world building.

A trope I like is levels being a tool to measure someone’s strength, instead of being strength itself. You’re not strong because your power level is over 9000, your power level is over 900 because you are strong. Still that system can be bad if used in excess, but I think it has much less problems when compared to the alternative.

Also manifest destiny divine right class/job assignments are stupid. It’s not even like skills and levels, there are no (good) video games that have that as a feature. I don’t know how it got associated with game inspired world building. It’s just stupid and makes it feel like any free will a character has is a big illusion
I actually sort of addressed the issue of personal vs system strength in one of my stories. It was just some researcher mentioning they didn't really know where one ended and the other began, and they've been trying to understand it better (and eventually retiring early out of frustration).

And as for the cheaty divine class or whatever, it comes from the whole "yo, wouldn't it be cool if I was like, in a video game world, but I also had this awesome OP ability? What do you mean it's like cheating, I got for being super special because I totally deserve it! And then I kick everyone's butts and everyone loves me and all the girls want to have sex with me!" type of person/target audience. You know exactly what I'm talking about.
 

2wordsperminute

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So I was just thinking, and then my mind exploded.
I suddenly questioned why so many isekai magic systems based around 'skills' call them 'skills'.

Isn't like the whole point of them that they take literally no skill to use and that they bypass the need to actually get good by just repeating a task or leveling up?

At that point it's a miracle anyone in those worlds know how to do anything themselves.
Because of video game skills. Which originated from TTRPG skills. Your D&D character might be better at telling lies, and the way that's represented, at least in 5e, is how much of a bonus you have to that skill.
 

Sergeandgreen

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Well, skill is generally the ability to do something. In this case the "skills" enable you to do something you otherwise couldn't. So i would argue that skill is the correct term.
There naturally is also the person who can be skilled. So he is able to do stuff well even without external help. And then there is someone who is skilled at a "skill". So you are able to use the "skill" beyond what others with the same skill could do. Either because it leveled with repetition or because you combined the "skill" with personal skill to do something others can't do as well or not at all.

I hope it wasn't too confusing.
 
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BearlyAlive

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So are we declaring the "Skill" vs. "Skilled" debate a hen&egg problem or are we declaring war on Isekai?
 

GlassRose

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Skills usually level by using them in litrpgs, which is how irl skill works, the difference being irl skill, there's usually a cap where you can't get much better at a noticeable rate without instruction, whereas with litrpgs that's often not considered. It is sometimes. But anyway, Skills leveling up, imo, is less a matter of skipping putting the effort into getting good, and more, skipping the need to be taught, or skipping learning the mechanical reasons why and just getting straight into the application. And tbf, some systems do require actual knowledge to get good, or the people in the world have noticed that just because someone has the Skill at a certain level, doesn't mean they're better, if they're up against someone with the Skill at the same level, but with a better utilization of the fundamental skill behind it.

The real sin is job/class levels universally increasing from killing things. Sometimes even Skills are guilty of this sin. A craftsman job/skill shouldn't level just cause you stabbed a goblin (or hit it with a Smith's hammer). You can explain it away sure, but it's unearned because it's rewarding you in an area that you weren't applying . Litrpgs, at their best, are a means to more directly reward character's effort over time, and specific notable achievements, and that isn't satisfying if the reward doesn't make sense relative to the achievement.

There are, notably different styles of litrpg, depending on the ideals of the author and what they are going for. There's a two main distinctions that I can think of. First, there's equal start, and inequal start. Pretty obvious, does everyone start with the same stats, skills, and class potential, or do some people get given special skills, classes, or stats at birth. And secondly, is the author trying to emphasize talent, or hardwork.

Inequal start is guilty of some of the more heinous wish fulfillment. Either the protagonist starts off special (almost always wish fulfillment), or doesn't. If they don't, then if wish fulfillment, they get ostracized for being weak, then they somehow get strong. In the case of 'hardwork' wish fulfillment, this often happens through what I've decided to call a 'hell arc' where they get stuck somewhere super dangerous, somehow don't die, and get out super powerful, and that time of suffering is used to 'justify' their power. Though sometimes, in that scenario it's actually a talent one, and it turns out that their 'weakest class/skill/whatever' had a secret application that nobody else had discovered or thought of and it's actually super stronkk and the protagonist was actually super talented all along! Very much the trashy wish fulfillment people think badly of litrpgs for.

Other times they just 'put in a lot of effort, more effort than anyone else because they were just relying on their op Skills!'. The trashy wish-fulfillment here is because it's feeding very directly on people who are jealous of talented people, don't think they put in any effort (tbf that's sometimes true), and it fills the fantasy of putting in a bunch of effort and way surpassing them. The problem is, they often apply that view of talent-no-effort to entire societies, as though no one ever tried hard work before, and all of the top people are made to be incompetent, and so the protagonist's wins feel unearned.

Sometimes, the 'put in a lot of effort' isn't the trashy kind of wish fulfillment, if it's handled well, if real genuine ingenuity is used on part of the protagonist, and they aren't getting their advantages because everyone else is dumb, but because they take on higher risks that others don't take, because they're desperate/determined and, yes, a bit lucky, but not outrageously so.

Equal-starts, or perhaps I should say, blank starts, have their pitfalls too. When the emphasis is more on talent, the protagonist gains skills super easily, or stumbles into some scenario that gives them an advantage, etc, when the author is focused on talent you generally know it's wish-fulfillment (I mean, all fantasy is wish fulfillment in a way, but, yah know). Hardwork variants can be just as bad if the protagonist is more powerful than their surroundings but it's not justified well, or, if all their accomplishments come from grinding. Just killing stuff, or doing repetitive tasks without actually applying any kind of knowledge or intellect to get better.

Training your Skills with a system shouldn't be, you do something a lot and the system makes you stronger, it should be, the system opens up new avenues of getting stronger, but to take advantage of them you have to apply both effort and knowledge, truly understand the what and how, in order to advance. That's usually the biggest pitfall of a hard-work based system.

Yes I noticed I got a little off topic. Shhh you didn't.
 

NotaNuffian

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Well, skill is generally the ability to do something. In this case the "skills" enable you to do something you otherwise couldn't. So i would argue that skill is the correct term.
There naturally is also the person who can be skilled. So he is able to do stuff well even without external help. And then there is someone who is skilled at a "skill". So you are able to use the "skill" beyond what others with the same skill could do. Either because it leveled with repetition or because you combined the "skill" with personal skill to do something others can't do as well or not at all.

I hope it wasn't to confusing.
It is.
So are we declaring the "Skill" vs. "Skilled" debate a hen&egg problem or are we declaring war on Isekai?
War.
Skills usually level by using them in litrpgs, which is how irl skill works, the difference being irl skill, there's usually a cap where you can't get much better at a noticeable rate without instruction, whereas with litrpgs that's often not considered. It is sometimes. But anyway, Skills leveling up, imo, is less a matter of skipping putting the effort into getting good, and more, skipping the need to be taught, or skipping learning the mechanical reasons why and just getting straight into the application. And tbf, some systems do require actual knowledge to get good, or the people in the world have noticed that just because someone has the Skill at a certain level, doesn't mean they're better, if they're up against someone with the Skill at the same level, but with a better utilization of the fundamental skill behind it.

The real sin is job/class levels universally increasing from killing things. Sometimes even Skills are guilty of this sin. A craftsman job/skill shouldn't level just cause you stabbed a goblin (or hit it with a Smith's hammer). You can explain it away sure, but it's unearned because it's rewarding you in an area that you weren't applying . Litrpgs, at their best, are a means to more directly reward character's effort over time, and specific notable achievements, and that isn't satisfying if the reward doesn't make sense relative to the achievement.

There are, notably different styles of litrpg, depending on the ideals of the author and what they are going for. There's a two main distinctions that I can think of. First, there's equal start, and inequal start. Pretty obvious, does everyone start with the same stats, skills, and class potential, or do some people get given special skills, classes, or stats at birth. And secondly, is the author trying to emphasize talent, or hardwork.

Inequal start is guilty of some of the more heinous wish fulfillment. Either the protagonist starts off special (almost always wish fulfillment), or doesn't. If they don't, then if wish fulfillment, they get ostracized for being weak, then they somehow get strong. In the case of 'hardwork' wish fulfillment, this often happens through what I've decided to call a 'hell arc' where they get stuck somewhere super dangerous, somehow don't die, and get out super powerful, and that time of suffering is used to 'justify' their power. Though sometimes, in that scenario it's actually a talent one, and it turns out that their 'weakest class/skill/whatever' had a secret application that nobody else had discovered or thought of and it's actually super stronkk and the protagonist was actually super talented all along! Very much the trashy wish fulfillment people think badly of litrpgs for.

Other times they just 'put in a lot of effort, more effort than anyone else because they were just relying on their op Skills!'. The trashy wish-fulfillment here is because it's feeding very directly on people who are jealous of talented people, don't think they put in any effort (tbf that's sometimes true), and it fills the fantasy of putting in a bunch of effort and way surpassing them. The problem is, they often apply that view of talent-no-effort to entire societies, as though no one ever tried hard work before, and all of the top people are made to be incompetent, and so the protagonist's wins feel unearned.

Sometimes, the 'put in a lot of effort' isn't the trashy kind of wish fulfillment, if it's handled well, if real genuine ingenuity is used on part of the protagonist, and they aren't getting their advantages because everyone else is dumb, but because they take on higher risks that others don't take, because they're desperate/determined and, yes, a bit lucky, but not outrageously so.

Equal-starts, or perhaps I should say, blank starts, have their pitfalls too. When the emphasis is more on talent, the protagonist gains skills super easily, or stumbles into some scenario that gives them an advantage, etc, when the author is focused on talent you generally know it's wish-fulfillment (I mean, all fantasy is wish fulfillment in a way, but, yah know). Hardwork variants can be just as bad if the protagonist is more powerful than their surroundings but it's not justified well, or, if all their accomplishments come from grinding. Just killing stuff, or doing repetitive tasks without actually applying any kind of knowledge or intellect to get better.

Training your Skills with a system shouldn't be, you do something a lot and the system makes you stronger, it should be, the system opens up new avenues of getting stronger, but to take advantage of them you have to apply both effort and knowledge, truly understand the what and how, in order to advance. That's usually the biggest pitfall of a hard-work based system.

Yes I noticed I got a little off topic. Shhh you didn't.
I lost you at paragraph 6
 

TheMonotonePuppet

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So I was just thinking, and then my mind exploded.
I suddenly questioned why so many isekai magic systems based around 'skills' call them 'skills'.

Isn't like the whole point of them that they take literally no skill to use and that they bypass the need to actually get good by just repeating a task or leveling up?

At that point it's a miracle anyone in those worlds know how to do anything themselves.
I’ve wondered this SO much. In my LitRPG, you actually have to know how to do the Skills to use them. It’s the Traits that are instinct as they are literally part of you.
 

NotaNuffian

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I’ve wondered this SO much. In my LitRPG, you actually have to know how to do the Skills to use them. It’s the Traits that are instinct as they are literally part of you.
 

TheMonotonePuppet

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I also have problems with isekai magic systems.:blob_catflip:
The lack of balance for certain stats is extremely grating to read.
People aren’t willing to put the effort into patching them, and when a main character goes full ham into one of them, they are magically head and shoulders over everyone.
Although, there are a few that do this well, like “Delve.”
 

CharlesEBrown

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I try to go with:

1. Skills: Abilities that improve with use. Skills are needed to control magic but true magic relies on all four elements.

2. Talents: Innate abilities that may be latent (and thus unlocked via skills, the use of other talents, external factors, etc.) or active from the start. These may mimic some magical effects but have far less versatility.

3. Perks/Quirks/Bennies(Benefits): These modify either base traits or one or both of the above but are not a "thing" in and of themselves.

4. Traits/Attributes: The raw natural abilities of a character.
 
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