Swords. We should talk about them.

Thraben

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I've been reading a lot of fantasy and consuming a lot of fantasy related or adjacent media lately, and one thing I can say with absolute confidence is that outside of clearly deliberate writing choices, no one seems to understand how swords work on a fundamental level in combat. Like, so, so many authors out here are writing somewhat grounded settings in terms of power-level, yet have swordfights that make the Star Wars sequels look good by comparison.

So, I'd like to have a post about it.

Before I can do that though, some exceptions I'm going to make and some disclaimers, and I swear to god if someone posts something [redacted] even with these exceptions and disclaimers here I'll [redacted].

Exception 1: Settings with wildly superhuman characters and wacky ass magic can do whatever the hell they want. They can be pool noodles for all I care, the spectacle is the only thing those stories are going for and so nothing else matters.
Exception 2: LitRPG and LitRPG adjacent stuff. While I have... opinions... we'll call them that, on how combat should work in a world like that, I can understand authors treating swords like glorified number sticks in that context. Call it a quirk of the genre.
Disclaimer: Real swordfights aren't really possible to portray accurately in a purely written form, and while I do think they're really fun to write and explore the space of anyway, that's not what we're talking about.
Disclaimer 2: When I say 'realism' I don't mean "Like real life" I mean "The logical way things should work in setting". If the setting is sufficiently similar to real life, then yes, it means that by proxy, but, like, if I mention realism when someone makes a comment about Bleach or something, what I'm talking about is 'the closest logical conclusion or explanation'.

With that out of the way: Sword fights! They're fun, they can be thematic, they're classic, they're mildly erotic, and so many other things! So why the hell are so many authors doing them WRONG. I'm being facetious, there's no one right way to write a swordfight and no exhaustive or all encompassing list of wrong ways... Except their totally is a list of ways they're very commonly done that lose out on massive amounts of both potential, realism, and stakes! So sike! There is an objectively right way to write a swordfight(contextually, don't be stupid, commenters)!

It's called... knowing how swords, and more specifically melee combat in general, works. See, in so many fantasy settings nowadays, people seem to think of combat as being this back and forth exchange with coherent breaks in the action to talk, monologue, have flashbacks, or receive kisses from loved ones gods forbid... and while there are lots of valid reasons you might want to write like that... Please don't. Combat, particularly melee, is ludicrously fast compared to what most people think. A swordfight between equally skilled HEMA duelists reaches a realistically debilitating conclusion in under 20 seconds at absolute most, and a fair few of those conclusions would be grievous injuries to both parties if they were fighting on a battlefield or duel to the death hundreds of years ago.

Now obviously most narratives just aren't structured for that to work, but that's no reason to do the goofy ass boring 'one single exchange of blows, unrealistic bind/clash, right back to monologuing' nonsense. That stuff is boring, weak, and portrays a fundamental lack of knowledge or care for the physical stakes of the situation, which is supposed to be the whole point of having an onscreen fight at all! Instead, I recommend you learn a bit of terminology, maybe a couple types of strikes and guards, and watch a few HEMA matches and a few from other martial arts styles, then re-examine your fight scenes with that in mind. A real fight between real people trying to win will be a little faster and three times as deadly.

That doesn't mean it can't drag on, though. Having a lightning fast high-skill duel that leaves both parties unharmed but momentarily unwilling to continue raises the stakes of your fight scene back up, placing real emphasis on the danger of the situation for both combatants, AND it provides an actual reason for them to stop and talk for a moment - they're weighing the odds, judging whether or not they'll remain uninjured if they continue, or are simply too shaken and off kilter from the first exchange to continue. Those excuses only work if the brief exchange is realistic to how a swordfight actually works though, hence my recommendation.

If what you want is more to get these characters to actually kill each other in a satisfying way, having a high-speed high-energy realistic swordfight also works really well with this focus; it's already a deadly situation, you just need to write in the exact way the fight ends within the exchange. It can be made thematically appropriate too! A character who's biggest flaw is a lack of love and empathy? Stab them through the heart to end things. A character that's always looking down on people? Cut them in half so that they die literally beneath everyone. A big bad villain that needs to be killed in a highly specific way? Be as brutal as you want when incapacitating them, then show off the flashy big bad only deathray of love in a drama filled addendum after the fight! The possibilities expand to the same degree that a poorly written fight's do, except this time your fight is way cooler, more realistic, and opens up more unique opportunities to actually impress upon the reader how skilled the combatants are and what the stakes of the fight are.

Ultimately, this is kind of a rant. The authors that suck at writing swordfights won't get better by anyone, and certainly not me, explaining to them why treating swordfights like two toddlers with pool noodles and an infinite supply of 'quippy' Marvel-esque one liners sucks to read, and the people who aren't writing the highly specific type of fantasy I'm talking about or have no desire to explore the creative space that better fight scenes provide didn't read this far. A subset of people, if they did read this far, will still write something like 'realism bad because its FANTASY' and regardless of how moronic it sounds, won't hear any argument to that. So, to the anticipated... 5%? That sounds reasonable. To the 5% of people who feel strongly enough about this topic to engage with it, I'd love to hear any opinions or other takes you may have.

Ok so when I said sword fights can be erotic I didn't really mean sexually pleasurable but obviously if you clicked on this you're curious enough to know that already so I'll explain.

Basically, imagine two individuals that you the author or maybe just the readers ship together. Keep that in mind. Swordfights are sweaty, fast, and fundamentally about penetrating the other with a long rod. Not with me? Cool, now imagine your chosen duo of characters, one of them stabs the other in an area that won't kill them but lets them slide the blade all the way through, bringing their faces close enough that they could kiss if they wanted to, only one of them is in immense pain from being stabbed and the other is panting hard from going through the effort of having stabbed them.

Write more swordfights in your romances is what I'm saying in case none of that made sense ok bye
 
D

Deleted member 84247

Guest
Swords are cool. But I like magic better. Erotic magic is sexy.

Yes, I read the whole rant, and I agree. We need more erotic sword fights, and I’m not talking to you BL authors. Or am I?

I am gonna go hide back in my castle.
 
D

Deleted member 166076

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I regret making my MC use a sword. It was just convenient at the time, but now I get stupid comments about how she could technically use the sword hilt as a blunt weapon against skeletons from readers who know too much about what the name of the technique is called, but seem to lack the common sense to realize that a complete noob at using swords with no skills or anything to make it easier for her is only going to get herself hurt if she tried such a thing.
 

Thraben

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I regret making my MC use a sword. It was just convenient at the time, but now I get stupid comments about how she could technically use the sword hilt as a blunt weapon against skeletons from readers who know too much about what the name of the technique is called, but seem to lack the common sense to realize that a complete noob at using swords with no skills or anything to make it easier for her is only going to get herself hurt if she tried such a thing.
That’s another thing! The neat part about swords is that they’re really good against specifically soft, fleshy things and not much else, and they also break really easily when used consistently against not those things
 

SSR

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Punch kick guys>>>>>>

(I'm acting like I write h2h scenes any better)
 

KonoKei

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Totally agree with this OP. My personal pet peeve is when authors ignore the importance of helmets and shields, or don't treat arrows like the very real danger they are. For authors out there looking to write a goblin like race, why aren't they all using bows? How does your hero deal with arrows?

I have entire sections of my chapters that explain what weapons the MC brings and for what targets they expect to encounter. Lightly armored gang of goblins? Plate mail for arrow deflection, scimitar for cutting attacks. Traveling long distances? Shortsword for precise thrusting attacks against any potential level of armor, shield for arrow deflection/general defense, and a medium lamalier coat to make travel not so taxing.
 

GlassRose

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Is the author really bad at writing sword fights if it is enjoyable to the reader and accomplishes their narrative goals? Or are they just not writing realistic sword fights. Realism isn't always practical storytelling.
 
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CodeCrisis

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I absolutely agree! Sure, there are times where, in stories, characters seem to need character development during the fight, but just standing still with an angry face isn't very... offensive. Or defensive. Realistically, a sword fight is usually finished in around two or three actions. Though they can last more depending on the skill, but, like you said, no more than twenty seconds.

All in all, I personally think having at least semi-realistic sword fights is rather important, as in every fight, the characters involved know that they could die, and even the readers would know that there is the possibility of grievous injury every fight.
 

RepresentingWrath

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Another Hema fan.
 

PancakesWitch

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swords have no place here, I cast spear in your face and you die, your sword couldnt even touch me, long stick wins yet again
 

Cynthell

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I agree with the notion sword fights, really fights in general with melee, should be fast. Snappy. Written as what they are, a life or death situation. Far too many stories take the approach of A attacks B defends B attacks A defends. It isnt a turn based game some fights should be conpletely one side and over in an instant and some should be a skillful exchange of blocks and parrys.

There is a level of realism that needs to be left at the door for the sake of enjoyment but that doesnt mean its entirely off the table.

As for erotic, passionate fights. Ive definitely written a good handful of swordplay romances that end in penetration, take that as you will.

Though I am preferential to a good warhammer over a sword.
 

ATRUNA

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Who cares about swords?
GLORY TO SPEARS!
Anyway I agree, thinking about it what you said could be applied to fighting in general, it has to be detailed, not just a "I punch you, you punch me, we talk" as if we were doing some weird OP roleplay.
But, I can understand, writing is difficult in general, writing fights and making the reader imagine exactly the scene that is being imagined by the author is probably impossible to replicate in the exact way.
 

Nolff

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I've been reading a lot of fantasy and consuming a lot of fantasy related or adjacent media lately, and one thing I can say with absolute confidence is that outside of clearly deliberate writing choices, no one seems to understand how swords work on a fundamental level in combat. Like, so, so many authors out here are writing somewhat grounded settings in terms of power-level, yet have swordfights that make the Star Wars sequels look good by comparison.

So, I'd like to have a post about it.

Before I can do that though, some exceptions I'm going to make and some disclaimers, and I swear to god if someone posts something [redacted] even with these exceptions and disclaimers here I'll [redacted].

Exception 1: Settings with wildly superhuman characters and wacky ass magic can do whatever the hell they want. They can be pool noodles for all I care, the spectacle is the only thing those stories are going for and so nothing else matters.
Exception 2: LitRPG and LitRPG adjacent stuff. While I have... opinions... we'll call them that, on how combat should work in a world like that, I can understand authors treating swords like glorified number sticks in that context. Call it a quirk of the genre.
Disclaimer: Real swordfights aren't really possible to portray accurately in a purely written form, and while I do think they're really fun to write and explore the space of anyway, that's not what we're talking about.
Disclaimer 2: When I say 'realism' I don't mean "Like real life" I mean "The logical way things should work in setting". If the setting is sufficiently similar to real life, then yes, it means that by proxy, but, like, if I mention realism when someone makes a comment about Bleach or something, what I'm talking about is 'the closest logical conclusion or explanation'.

With that out of the way: Sword fights! They're fun, they can be thematic, they're classic, they're mildly erotic, and so many other things! So why the hell are so many authors doing them WRONG. I'm being facetious, there's no one right way to write a swordfight and no exhaustive or all encompassing list of wrong ways... Except their totally is a list of ways they're very commonly done that lose out on massive amounts of both potential, realism, and stakes! So sike! There is an objectively right way to write a swordfight(contextually, don't be stupid, commenters)!

It's called... knowing how swords, and more specifically melee combat in general, works. See, in so many fantasy settings nowadays, people seem to think of combat as being this back and forth exchange with coherent breaks in the action to talk, monologue, have flashbacks, or receive kisses from loved ones gods forbid... and while there are lots of valid reasons you might want to write like that... Please don't. Combat, particularly melee, is ludicrously fast compared to what most people think. A swordfight between equally skilled HEMA duelists reaches a realistically debilitating conclusion in under 20 seconds at absolute most, and a fair few of those conclusions would be grievous injuries to both parties if they were fighting on a battlefield or duel to the death hundreds of years ago.

Now obviously most narratives just aren't structured for that to work, but that's no reason to do the goofy ass boring 'one single exchange of blows, unrealistic bind/clash, right back to monologuing' nonsense. That stuff is boring, weak, and portrays a fundamental lack of knowledge or care for the physical stakes of the situation, which is supposed to be the whole point of having an onscreen fight at all! Instead, I recommend you learn a bit of terminology, maybe a couple types of strikes and guards, and watch a few HEMA matches and a few from other martial arts styles, then re-examine your fight scenes with that in mind. A real fight between real people trying to win will be a little faster and three times as deadly.

That doesn't mean it can't drag on, though. Having a lightning fast high-skill duel that leaves both parties unharmed but momentarily unwilling to continue raises the stakes of your fight scene back up, placing real emphasis on the danger of the situation for both combatants, AND it provides an actual reason for them to stop and talk for a moment - they're weighing the odds, judging whether or not they'll remain uninjured if they continue, or are simply too shaken and off kilter from the first exchange to continue. Those excuses only work if the brief exchange is realistic to how a swordfight actually works though, hence my recommendation.

If what you want is more to get these characters to actually kill each other in a satisfying way, having a high-speed high-energy realistic swordfight also works really well with this focus; it's already a deadly situation, you just need to write in the exact way the fight ends within the exchange. It can be made thematically appropriate too! A character who's biggest flaw is a lack of love and empathy? Stab them through the heart to end things. A character that's always looking down on people? Cut them in half so that they die literally beneath everyone. A big bad villain that needs to be killed in a highly specific way? Be as brutal as you want when incapacitating them, then show off the flashy big bad only deathray of love in a drama filled addendum after the fight! The possibilities expand to the same degree that a poorly written fight's do, except this time your fight is way cooler, more realistic, and opens up more unique opportunities to actually impress upon the reader how skilled the combatants are and what the stakes of the fight are.

Ultimately, this is kind of a rant. The authors that suck at writing swordfights won't get better by anyone, and certainly not me, explaining to them why treating swordfights like two toddlers with pool noodles and an infinite supply of 'quippy' Marvel-esque one liners sucks to read, and the people who aren't writing the highly specific type of fantasy I'm talking about or have no desire to explore the creative space that better fight scenes provide didn't read this far. A subset of people, if they did read this far, will still write something like 'realism bad because its FANTASY' and regardless of how moronic it sounds, won't hear any argument to that. So, to the anticipated... 5%? That sounds reasonable. To the 5% of people who feel strongly enough about this topic to engage with it, I'd love to hear any opinions or other takes you may have.

Ok so when I said sword fights can be erotic I didn't really mean sexually pleasurable but obviously if you clicked on this you're curious enough to know that already so I'll explain.

Basically, imagine two individuals that you the author or maybe just the readers ship together. Keep that in mind. Swordfights are sweaty, fast, and fundamentally about penetrating the other with a long rod. Not with me? Cool, now imagine your chosen duo of characters, one of them stabs the other in an area that won't kill them but lets them slide the blade all the way through, bringing their faces close enough that they could kiss if they wanted to, only one of them is in immense pain from being stabbed and the other is panting hard from going through the effort of having stabbed them.

Write more swordfights in your romances is what I'm saying in case none of that made sense ok bye
I guess this video is now a guide for authors, especially me.

 

Jerynboe

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The speed thing is often overlooked. I kinda went with a have my cake and eat it too idea in my setting. The MC is a TTRPG character; everyone else is experiencing the world in real time. MC is going turn based. This means that he comes off as some kind of tactical genius because every 6 seconds the whole world pauses for him and he’s able to take as long as he likes to study the battlefield, plan his next move, and shout orders that somehow all get through clearly to his allies. After all, talking is a free action.

Hell, in my slow journey to write progressively less OP main characters I’m tempted to write a story where being turn based is someone’s only real edge over everyone else. It’s a pretty huge advantage to get 3 time outs over the course of a 20 second fight.
 

lambenttyto

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As for erotic, passionate fights. Ive definitely written a good handful of swordplay romances that end in penetration, take that as you will.
Lol. You're inspiring me!
GLORY TO SPEARS!
The sword isn't just more difficult to use, taking years to master, it's a piece of artistry, and extremely expensive. Hence why it was the weapon of a noble. Interestingly enough, European sword is also shaped quite like our Christian cross giving it added meaning on that front. Chivalry and knightly valor and all that. Take your pointy stick and pitch some hay, lol.
 
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