ruined and boring power systems

[Garon]

Lol. It's usually the other way around. It usually starts off complicated...and then once people become OP, most of the earlier rules and limitations just vanish and are conveniently forgotten to be contradicted or retconned later on with no explanation.

If nobody noticed it, it's great isn't it?

 

[RepresentingWrath]

As a sidenote, it's weird to me that every single powerful pirate in the show, by virtue of the devil fruits.....can't swim. Maybe that's one of the reasons I just never could get into it as much. The disconnect there.

Isn't it the point, and why it is called devil fruit? Don't quote me on that though, I don't remember One Piece well enough.

 

[ZukoMee]

And yeah Naruto overall have bad final

I can still get annoyed when I think about the fact that Sasuke was basically given a slap on the wrist. Idk. Dude should've been imprisoned forever. He was a menace because "his feelings" and this was somehow, accepted as a legitimate excuse. That is BAFFLING. I can't even watch Boruto because Sarada should not exist. and Sasuke shouldn't be walking around scot-free. And also, if even half of what I hear is true, I dodged a bullet anyway.

Heard Naruto loses Kurama which is just....stupid. Also that he is nerfed throughout the show.

Then it stopped being a wand and turned into a vagina. No. I'm serious. Look at it. It's a vagina.

I'm glad you said it and not me. But yes. I get it.

They ruined the power rules in Marvel by having no idea what they are doing.

Nah. Kathleen Kennedy ruined it. That Force Is Female nonsense ruined it. Or you could just narrow it all down and say Disney ruined it.

Isn't it the point, and why it is called devil fruit? Don't quote me on that though, I don't remember One Piece well enough.

You are probably right. I lost touch with it around the time Crocodile was still the Big Bad. Which is early-ish? I think?

 

[Garon]

I can still get annoyed when I think about the fact that Sasuke was basically given a slap on the wrist. Idk. Dude should've been imprisoned forever. He was a menace because "his feelings" and this was somehow, accepted as a legitimate excuse. That is BAFFLING. I can't even watch Boruto because Sarada should not exist. and Sasuke shouldn't be walking around scot-free. And also, if even half of what I hear is true, I dodged a bullet anyway.

Heard Naruto loses Kurama which is just....stupid. Also that he is nerfed throughout the show.

Bruh, not only sasuke. But fucking orochimaru (don't remember name) continue experiments with humans and specifically with kids. And Naruto see it, and not trying stop it. Even say it's bad. But no, he rather gonna yapping about how work is hard. Bruh don't watch Boruto. They resurrect itachi. They can't leave my boy dead

 

[Shrimp_eater]

I don't know. Every story I readed with this entheral shop, used it boring. But I hope you could make it better

I think its more a matter of execution, what i described is ultimately just a superpower story.

The problem i see with the whole stats thing its that it works strangely when you put it into the framework of a reality. They're abstractions of real concepts to begin with, designed with the purpose of translating said concepts onto table-top games.

A characters HP wasn't meant to portray literally how much damage they can take, but rather more of a "plot armor" that grows alongside training and battle experience. If someone loses half of their HP it isn't that they literally took half of the damage their body can handle, and many people nowadays making LitRPG stories (or even designing games) don't seem to understand that.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

You are probably right. I lost touch with it around the time Crocodile was still the Big Bad. Which is early-ish? I think?

It is. I think Shanks(the red hair dude with a saber and one arm) said in the beginning that he didn't want to eat the devil fruit, the one Luffy ate, because he didn't want to lose the ability to swim.

 

[ZukoMee]

Bruh, not only sasuke. But fucking orochimaru (don't remember name) continue experiments with humans and specifically with kids. And Naruto see it, and not trying stop it. Even say it's bad. But no, he rather gonna yapping about how work is hard. Bruh don't watch Boruto. They resurrect itachi. They can't leave my boy dead

I never liked the Uchiha Clan. Personally, I agreed with the Second Hokage. If Hashirama had finished Madara off the first time they fought, SO MUCH in that world would have been better. Not all, but the VAST MAJORITY of the drama and heartache that occurred in the Naruto series, could be laid at the feet of some Uchiha and his excuse of "muh feelings." That curse of hatred nonsense where they say Uchiha's feel emotions more strongly than others was just....such an awful excuse.

Basically that whole clan bred psychologically unstable brats that were temper tantrum-prone, and their entire clan's inner-culture gaslit them all into thinking it was acceptable and that everyone else was the problem. The best thing that ever happened to the Uchiha Clan was Itachi getting rid of most of them.

Still, sometimes I regret that a show with Fugaku and Minato as the MC's never came about. I think that would have been better than even Naruto.

 

[CarburetorThompson]

Aura, mana heart, circle magic. I don’t think I could make a more generic system if I tried. Whenever I get to a system explanation in those stories I just skip it, because it won’t be any different from something I’ve already read.

 

[TheEldritchGod]

I was not talking about tabletop games, brother.

Oh. Well, I am. A Rules Lawyer stuck in a Literal RPG is basically d20 3.0/3.5, but with the serial numbers filed off. I rename some stuff and simplify some other things so that the reader doesn't get stuck in the weeds. I also am, to some extent, blending it with White Wolf, but only for the behind-the-scenes game development drama.

Eileen banging Sam Chupp. *shudder*

I know way too much about the behind-the-scenes drama on a few Gaming companies.

Although I do have to be careful. I find myself working hard to nerf the MC. Like, I know what the most obvious thing to do it, and in an unlimited d20 3.0/3.5 game, the MC would already have become a god. So every time I see a way for him to just destroy the story, I throw something in the way.

For example, using the Region-Locked rules, so that the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list is absolutely nerfed. Having the government crack down HARD on people who use teleport. Having the more advanced civilizatons blanket their cities with secure spells liked to teleport traps so if you teleport you get shunted into a teleporter containment area.

I think the problem with most writers who destroy their own power system's balance, is they think MOAR POWR = GUD.
They don't realize that giving the MC a power, then having someone go, "Oh yeah. We dealt with YOUR KIND before, then whipping out a counter to absolutely NERF the MC, thus forcing him to make crafty sacrifices is actually what people want to read.

I don't want to spoil it, but the MC in my story gets in a situation where he is boned. so he does the unthinkable to get out of it.

He blows his character build by spending the XP he was saving for a special class on something that is useful RIGHT NOW. He creates a flaw in his build that he can never recover from to save the life of his companion. That might not sound like much, but to a power gamer, forever gimping your build JUST to save an NPCs life, that's character growth. Why does he do it? Because he runs into people who are prepared to deal with his standard BS. So he has to think outside the box and munchkin all-new BS to win.

I think that's where most power systems fail. They give the MC power and think, "The solution is to give the Badguys MOAR POWR.

No.

Sometimes that works. (The Bad Guy just being BETTER.) But it also is a solution if you go, "No. Nothing you do works. Figure out some way around this problem that doesn't involve screaming loudly and blasts of solar plasma. Authors like their MCs, so it's hard to kick them in the teeth.

I think kicking an MC in the teeth is fun and the readers love it when the MC gets kicked in the teeth then goes, "Oh. You knocked out a few of my teeth. Well, I guess I got no choice but to dig deep and do something REALLY FUCKED UP. Have you ever read the rules on SYMBIOTES??? Yeah, I'm gonna have to blend my body with Ectoplasm, but Oh BOY, are you gonna HURT."

Everything should have a price.

For example, in d20, psions get Time Stop at level 11. Most get it at level 17. The MC figures out how to get it at level 6.

Now, stopping time. That soumd powerful. it is. BUT, its nerfed in a bunch of ways, it rther energy intensive, and there is an oft ignored rule where you get a -2 fear penalty to all rolls for one round after using the power. So. I changed that -2 penalty into CHRONO-PSYCHOSIS. Every time you use a time altering power, the backlash is total sensory deprivation where only seconds pass, but it feels like HOURS with you trapped in an endless void where you cannot even scream.

I think THAT might provoke some terror, don't you think?

How often you gonna stop time if when you are done, you get lost in a void, unable to do anything except think, all senses stolen from you, and when you return, you are consumed with feelings of paranoia that accumulate the more often you use these time-altering powers in a short amount of time?

Give the MC power, then PUNISH HIM FOR USING IT.

This is how you make a good power system.

 

[ZukoMee]

It is. I think Shanks(the red hair dude with a saber and one arm) said in the beginning that he didn't want to eat the devil fruit, the one Luffy ate, because he didn't want to lose the ability to swim.

The Haki thing with Shanks makes even less sense. He's apparently powerful as hell with this Haki stuff....but he let a giant fish rip his arm off. The excuse of saving Luffy doesn't hold any weight since I've seen clips on Youtube of guys doing feats with Haki that just....don't add up. Shanks is considered one of the Top 5 strongest people in the One Piece world, even with a missing arm.

It just sounds like a ret-con/plot hole they just couldn't fix or fill-in and so they just ignored it and hoped everyone else would too. This one of the best examples of why I think Haki was a really strange introduction to the story. It just doesn't fit. It seems like it's something Oda thought of at the last-second.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Speaking or ruined power systems. Toriko's power system got ruined whent author started introdcuing and expanding on JoJo stands ripoffs.

 

[TsumiHokiro]

I think its more a matter of execution, what i described is ultimately just a superpower story.

The problem i see with the whole stats thing its that it works strangely when you put it into the framework of a reality, they're abstractions of real concepts to begin with, designed with the purpose of translating said concepts onto table-top games.

A characters HP wasn't meant to portray literally how much damage they can take, but rather more of a "plot armor" that grows alongside training and battle experience. If someone loses half of their HP it isn't that they literally took half of the damage their body can handle, and many people nowadays making LitRPG stories (or even designing games) don't seem to understand that.

Interesting interpretation of Hit Points. Maybe people began losing bearing when computer games started to associate with the red colour and with blood.
Maybe that's the problem with mana too, associated with the blue colour...

 

[Notadate]

Ok, you made nen, I like it)

I think I have a detailed part of a system I’ve made on the forum

 

[RepresentingWrath]

The Haki thing with Shanks makes even less sense. He's apparently powerful as hell with this Haki stuff....but he let a giant fish rip his arm off. The excuse of saving Luffy doesn't hold any weight since I've seen clips on Youtube of guys doing feats with Haki that just....don't add up. Shanks is considered one of the Top 5 strongest people in the One Piece world, even with a missing arm.

It just sounds like a ret-con/plot hole they just couldn't fix or fill-in and so they just ignored it and hoped everyone else would too. This one of the best examples of why I think Haki was a really strange introduction to the story. It just doesn't fit. It seems like it's something Oda thought of at the last-second.

I stopped reading it to take a breath, so now I am at least 300 or so chapters behind, probably a lot more. And in those 300+ chapters Oda explains a LOT of stuff. I didn't read it, but my friend did. And from what I heard from him, it falls apart. However, what I saw and read was extremely good.

As for Shanks, I just asked my friend. My friend said it is implied Shanks, at the moment of saving Luffy, was a nobody. He didn't have haki(or didn't know how to use it consciously) at the time, and in fact, losing an arm made his haki appear. And while Luffy was training hard to win against people like Crocodile, Shanks ascended to top 5. But I don't know or remember if it is a retcon or not.

 

[Notadate]

.

Physique​

-​

Motion
-
The enhancement of motion. Speed, force, transfer, etc.


Vigor
-
Health
[Act of using physique to stimulate and enhancing the bodies regeneration.]
Strength
[Act of using physique to enhance the bodies physical strength.]
Stamina
[Act of using physique as a substitute for your stamina.]


Endurance
-
Fleshgoop
[The bodies ability to heal itself with scar-tissue. Allows the creation of an imitation of the bodies flesh, bone, and other matter. Acting as normal scar-tissue or a template for the body to heal into and make true-flesh. It has a reduce function compared to imitated flesh.]
Build-up
[When are bones break, are muscle torn, and skin damaged. They return stronger and tougher. The bodies builds upon these to increase their toughness. Allows the enhancement of the toughness and durability of an object.]
Resilience
[The immune system, the bodies adaption to the elements. They become more resilient each time they are battered down. Increases the resilience of the body to foreign forces.]

 

[ZukoMee]

And while Luffy was training hard to win against people like Crocodile, Shanks ascended to top 5. But I don't know or remember if it is a retcon or not.

Makes sense I suppose.

 

[TheEldritchGod]

I think its more a matter of execution, what i described is ultimately just a superpower story.

The problem i see with the whole stats thing its that it works strangely when you put it into the framework of a reality. They're abstractions of real concepts to begin with, designed with the purpose of translating said concepts onto table-top games.

A characters HP wasn't meant to portray literally how much damage they can take, but rather more of a "plot armor" that grows alongside training and battle experience. If someone loses half of their HP it isn't that they literally took half of the damage their body can handle, and many people nowadays making LitRPG stories (or even designing games) don't seem to understand that.

Well, bleeding doesn't happen until someone is in the negatives.
Most RPGs are Binary damage. Here. Let me quote my guide.

Spreading the damage

Which is more dangerous to you when you lose initiative? A level 10 fighter with one hit point, or a level 10 fighter with 100 hit points? Trick question, they are equally dangerous.

It takes a while to sink in, but D&D has a binary nature to it when it comes to hit points. You are just as dangerous with one hit point as with a hundred. Once you reach zero, you drop, but until then you suffer no ill effects. So a fireball that wounds a group of goblins is only useful in setting up a group of targets for a fighter with mighty cleave to go to town. It is far better to focus damage on one target, move to the next, then the next.

Another example, if you have a magic missile that will do 5 points of damage and you have a wounded target that is almost dead with one hit point left, and a target that has ten hit points, which one would you attack?

Well, in the real world, it would seem like the almost dead target would waste 4 points of damage, but in D&D, dropping a target this round means one less enemy to attack you next round. Better to over kill the wounded, then to leave two targets up to fight you next round.

That is how a LITERAL RPG should work. But for some reason people add in debuffs and wound penalties. They don't EXIST unless it's a special attack. HPs are a reflection on, well, as you put it... plot armor.
Here. Let me quote some more stuff.

Trap 3
Everything has to be awesome.

Borderlands illustrates this absolutely perfectly for me. For those who are not familiar with it, it includes a weapon drop system that is randomized based on the power and type of creature that you kill, as well as the area in which you kill it. This leads to a phenomenon that most people who play the game are familiar with. You end up collecting terrible weapons that you wouldn't use even at 10 levels lower dropping from enemies at a frequent rate, weapons that you used to use at an uncommon rate, and then a new weapon to use every couple levels, or what seems like 15 bajillion hours later. People hated this (at least, people I knew), because, well, you just killed a boss, and he dropped some crap weapon that you can't use, they wanted something interesting dropping every time. While that makes sense from a player's standpoint, it's a horrible idea from a developer's standpoint. Those crap weapons need to exist to make the good weapons actually be good. If you constantly got better weapons (or even good weapons) you would end up with vastly overpowered weapons halfway through the game, and it would just not be fun. Not only that, but the choice would be hard, and people don't like that. And finally, it would make all of the guns seem the same (at least guns of a certain type). Does that last one sound familiar?

The reason so many guns were worthless was a mathematical certainty. If you have a good gun, then you have three options on any weapon drop: a better gun, the same gun, or a weaker gun. If there's a finite limit to power (which there is), then you will eventually run out of better guns, and every gun will be as good or worse. It's just a matter of how fast that happens. The slower you go, the more bad guns you'll experience on the way to the best, the faster you go the more time you'll spend with the best (making encounters too easy if you get better guns faster than you need them). And there's always room for complaint here because of it, since the balance is a subjective thing.

That same principle applies to D&D, though for a slightly different reason. In D&D, you have so many options that the likelihood of it not being a good option increases with each new system you add. Heck, each new tiny little ability (skill use, feat, etc.). It's a matter of complexity, it's so complex that it's absolutely impossible for any one person to look at every reaction and say "yup, that's going to affect this in this precise way". You can whine and such about how the core game is poorly balanced, but knowing what they knew then, it was balanced. Knowing what they know now, it's not. That's why ToB came out. And the classes like Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necromancer, Binder, Incarnum, etc. The later you go into a system's development, the more reasonable the abilities become (note the balance and design on early supplements and core vs later supplements). And it's still really hard, because there's still combinations that they don't think of checking for.

So not every character has to be awesome. It’s okay to be okay. Sure, the game has a I-WIN mentality, but if you fit in with the group, then it’s okay to be average. And if you want to be the best, be the best, but don’t force everyone else to be the best right along with you. Every player is different and if you want to get people to improve, focus on talking about it in a friendly way, “Hey, ya know, if we work out your buffs ahead of time, we can really improve our chances of survival.” That’s a good way to put it. Ordering the Wizard to set aside certain slots for buffs, that you “need” because the combo is perfect with your X, will only make people want to strangle you.

I think this applies to power systems in stories as well.

 

[Shrimp_eater]

Interesting interpretation of Hit Points. Maybe people began losing bearing when computer games started to associate with the red colour and with blood.
Maybe that's the problem with mana too, associated with the blue colour...

I think the problem really started after people began adapting RPG systems from table-top-based RPG videogames. Some of them do work very well in terms of balacing a game, but it sort of became a slippery slope from there.

Imagine you have an isometric RPG that uses guns. The higher your "gun-skill", the more damage you deal. Makes sense in a isometric (or table-top) perspective because ultimately you're only dealing with the act of shooting as an abstraction. So the higher damage you deal can be attributed to your character being able to use a gun better the higher the skill level.

But then RPG makers tried translating this into FPS games, like Fallout 3 onwards. There you are actually pointing a gun, and shooting people in the arms, legs, head, etc. That previous abstraction makes no sense anymore because the player became the agent rather than just a decision-maker. Why is a bullet to the head, from the same weapon, suddenly doing more damage because you are "more skilled" now? It's the type of logic that went over the game designers heads, or perhaps just ignored because they couldn't be bothered adapting the systems properly.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Makes sense I suppose.

You also dropped it before the "training" arc. Considering how not only MC and his friends, but literally everyone powered up during the "training" arc, since the training took a long time, that theory makes even more sense. Unless it was a retcon of course.

Oh. Well, I am.

Good for you.

 

[2wordsperminute]

Magic in Fairy Tail and Black Clover. Sure, specializing into one type of magic and mastering it can be interesting. If it isn't the case for every single character. And if it doesn't seem like every single character has a different type of magic. Variation is great, and individual characters should also have variation in the spells they can use.