Discussion about "write for yourself" when writing romance.

[RepresentingWrath]

Another thing that have been on my mind, though this time it's more of a discussion rather than me asking for advice.

A small backstory. First of all, I presume that all of you saw this adivce "Write for yorself." Maybe not exactly this phrasing, but someting that has the same meaning. Second part of the backstory is that I like reading all kind of romance novels and manga. Harem and non-harem alike. I mention this for a very important reason. We all know with whom MCs end up by the end of the story, or whom MCs loves the most. Poster boy\girl. I know that sometimes it's not like this, but whenever it happens it's more of an exception to the rule.

Now, let's assume you as a writer write for yourself. You write some kind of romance. Although you don't ignore proper criticism, you have an idea in your head what to write. However, when you were writing your story, MC and one of the love interests have an extremely good chemistry, and this love interest isn't the main one, isn't the poster boy\girl. Inadvertently, you make a better pair than the one you had in your mind. And every reader tells how MC and this particular character should end up together. However, you write for yourself. Moreover, you as an author surely know more than reader. You already have a character arc for the main love interest, you have a planned arc where MC and the main love interest bond. You think that readers simply didn't see all of it yet, but once they do, they will change their minds. MC ends up with the main love interest, and no one likes it because the chemistry between the two simply isn't as great.

I've seen this happen way too many times. And this isn't me whining about my favorite girl or boy not winning. I saw many times how the love interest that I didn't like as much had the best chemistry with MC, yet end up alone or as a side lover rather than being a main one. I saw how authors push through all the pleas and the ending couples are bad to say the least. So, what is your opinion on this? Do you think those were merely authors fuck-ups and you won't repeat their mistakes? Do you think we should listen to readers? Share your thoughts.

P.S. For K5. No. Polyamory is NOT an option, so stahp.

 

[ThrillingHuman]

For K5. No. Polyamory is NOT an option, so stahp

based

So, what is your opinion on this? Do you think those were merely authors fuck-ups and you won't repeat their mistakes? Do you think we should listen to readers? Share your thoughts.

we do a little trolling

 

[Temple]

no one likes it because the chemistry between the two simply isn't as great.

I think that's more of a bad writing/planning thing (probably pantser sickness) rather than a question of listening to readers or not. You want X and Y to pair. You do it. It didn't turn out great because your writing sucks.

Assuming it isn't a writing issue, the listening-to-readers problem usually happens if an author wants the numbers (get popular/likes/favorites), and sacrifices their own ideas. In the case of big Patreons, the readers have actually more pull because they pay money. There are some instances of big Patreon authors who followed what the large donors want, rather than their own thing, and regret it. They expressly admit regretting it. How many don't admit it? And there are several issues with big Patreons, readers being toxic, and all that. That's more an RR thing because they have the big Patreons mostly there.

I have experience with writing the plot a certain way while readers want it another way. I have plowed through all the resistance. Those readers left, and those who stayed enjoyed the direction I took them.

If specifically about romance, I don't write romance but I do have a "joke" spin-off of one of my stories that's kind of a romance. Funnily, the first serious pairing isn't the obvious one. It's still only on Patreon, so only my (very few) patrons read it, and they loved it though no one expected that pairing. I'm hopeful the free readers will like it when it gets released. But then again, the readers who stuck with me for this long are on board with whatever I do.

The issue of writing for yourself really rears its ugly head more when big money is involved, like in the case of big Patreon authors.

 

[Deleted member 58005]

I remember that one stepsister anime where the guy used to date her. The green haired girl I was rooting for–a lot of people were. She seemed to be the more fitting romantic interest. But like you said, the poster girl often wins. Author kinda fumbled the bag on that one honestly.

you think those were merely authors fuck-ups and you won't repeat their mistakes?

I don't have romance as my main tag for the story, so I can't speak on it. But I do believe that my would-be fanbase would 100% be all for the main pair.

Do you think we should listen to readers? Share your thoughts.

As in most things, in small doses. It's cool and all to learn from readers, but the moment you start deviating from what you want to write in order to please people... Well, let's just say that takes away the soul of writing. Unless, you write to please people, of course.

 

[Premier]

This just sounds like you wrote a bad story. I don't think it would have been saved with a different pairing.

 

[AnonUnlimited]

I find what people believe to be "chemistry" is often misleading and based on their own idea of what is romance. A lot of people however are wrong about romance. How many people have said someone is made for each other at a wedding only for the couple to be divorced later? Having chemistry is not as important as being able to problem solve or get along with each other.

Reality might make relationships boring, but boring relationships where both partners are able to communicate are the most stable and long lasting. Chemistry, instant chemistry, unfortunately is a sign of someone who has attachment problems when taken against a long history of persistence... in real life anyway.

So perhaps the author is right, because chemistry is temporary.

 

[LilRora]

That would depend on the exact details, but it's often very subjective. I had a situation once, when I started publishing a story, and about 15 chapters in for some reason most of my readers were assuming the mc would end up with a character I wasn't planning to have any romance at all, who was supposed to be the little sister kind of character of all things.

And, well, I did consider the pairing. But in the end that was the conclusion readers made only based on the beginning of the story, and my own plans were completely different. They helped me in many other ways, but at some point it becomes just annoying and distracting, and that's when reader's preferences can affect the author's own opinion and make them doubt themself. That did not happen in regards to romance to me, at least yet, and I hope it stays that way.

To be honest though, that is the single most important reason why I don't like harems. I particularly stepped on a landmine by reading Mushoku Tensei.

Spoiler

I liked the first pairing there, but the author decided he'll fuck the relationship with a stupid misunderstanding, basically. I guessed at that point that the mc would get back together with her, but then the author made me read the mc getting together with another girl, and believe me I tried. I tried to stomach it, expecting to be rewarded with a good ending, but I didn't manage to read over 100 chapters of a misunderstanding during which the mc gets together with two other girls.

And granted a lot of my dissatisfaction and annoyance comes from my preferences, but that one case really opened my eyes to how subjectively badly a romance can be written, and how drastically different reception a story can have across various people.

And the conclusion to that is, no matter how hard you try, someone won't like the romance. I believe that authors should show how they see a romance, not how the readers want them. It can end up in a disaster, of course, but it's even worse for the author if they change their mind halfway and make something they don't really want.

The problem is, most of the times it's only visible in hindisght.

 

[Tsuru]

Another thing that have been on my mind, though this time it's more of a discussion rather than me asking for advice.

A small backstory. First of all, I presume that all of you saw this adivce "Write for yorself." Maybe not exactly this phrasing, but someting that has the same meaning. Second part of the backstory is that I like reading all kind of romance novels and manga. Harem and non-harem alike. I mention this for a very important reason. We all know with whom MCs end up by the end of the story, or whom MCs loves the most. Poster boy\girl. I know that sometimes it's not like this, but whenever it happens it's more of an exception to the rule.

Now, let's assume you as a writer write for yourself. You write some kind of romance. Although you don't ignore proper criticism, you have an idea in your head what to write. However, when you were writing your story, MC and one of the love interests have an extremely good chemistry, and this love interest isn't the main one, isn't the poster boy\girl. Inadvertently, you make a better pair than the one you had in your mind. And every reader tells how MC and this particular character should end up together. However, you write for yourself. Moreover, you as an author surely know more than reader. You already have a character arc for the main love interest, you have a planned arc where MC and the main love interest bond. You think that readers simply didn't see all of it yet, but once they do, they will change their minds. MC ends up with the main love interest, and no one likes it because the chemistry between the two simply isn't as great.

I've seen this happen way too many times. And this isn't me whining about my favorite girl or boy not winning. I saw many times how the love interest that I didn't like as much had the best chemistry with MC, yet end up alone or as a side lover rather than being a main one. I saw how authors push through all the pleas and the ending couples are bad to say the least. So, what is your opinion on this? Do you think those were merely authors fuck-ups and you won't repeat their mistakes? Do you think we should listen to readers? Share your thoughts.

P.S. For K5. No. Polyamory is NOT an option, so stahp.

COUGH COUGH

Best example of a author choosing to listening to "readers"
NARUTO
Author wanted Sakura to be Naruto's waifu
Even chinese readers are dumbfounded of this kind of thought. Because everytime i read a chinese fanfic on naruto or a anime creator chinese novel, they often mention how the author had Sakura as a target.
My guess is that author like Love Hina/Negima famous author at that time, liked "active" strong girls compared to their irl docile girls at their era.
OR simply because a active girl = more possibilities of plot compared to a yamato nadeshiko girl, which is true with how garbage hinata moon movie was.



Well.....for bad example of best chemistry / not listening.
---------I guess Baka to test come to my mind and Boku Tomodachi
1) Himeji get together, despite just a boring yandere with too fluffy PINK hair. And now i think about it, probably rare case where tsundere 2nd heroine is likeable. F to anyone that dislike flat chest. Also MC was her first friend.
2) And Boku Tomodachi. As a CULTIST BELIEVER OF "CHILDHOOD FRIEND IS BEST ROMANCE". I despite the author with my whole heart that the black hair girl Yozora, didnt get together, heck didn't experienced dating compared to other FLs where MC tested dating, no salvation about her shitty family.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

COUGH COUGH

Best example of a author choosing to listening to "readers"
NARUTO
Author wanted Sakura to be Naruto's waifu
Even chinese readers are dumbfounded of this kind of thought. Because everytime i read a chinese fanfic on naruto or a anime creator chinese novel, they often mention how the author had Sakura as a target.
My guess is that author like Love Hina/Negima famous author at that time, liked "active" strong girls compared to their irl docile girls at their era.
OR simply because a active girl = more possibilities of plot compared to a yamato nadeshiko girl, which is true with how garbage hinata moon movie was.



Well.....for bad example of best chemistry / not listening.
---------I guess Baka to test come to my mind and Boku Tomodachi
1) Himeji get together, despite just a boring yandere with too fluffy PINK hair. And now i think about it, probably rare case where tsundere 2nd heroine is likeable. F to anyone that dislike flat chest. Also MC was her first friend.
2) And Boku Tomodachi. As a CULTIST BELIEVER OF "CHILDHOOD FRIEND IS BEST ROMANCE". I despite the author with my whole heart that the black hair girl Yozora, didnt get together, heck didn't experienced dating compared to other FLs where MC tested dating, no salvation about her shitty family.

First of all, if you used any pics I can't see them without VPN. Second, from what I understand you mentioned a couple of examples, right? However, I want to know your opinion on the topic if you have one. For example, what will you do in a similar case? Do you think authors are blinded by the additional info they have, or readers misunderstand things?

 

[ThrillingHuman]

So perhaps the author is right, because chemistry is temporary.

chemistry is temporary. Only Doom is eternal

 

[Tsuru]

First of all, if you used any pics I can't see them without VPN. Second, from what I understand you mentioned a couple of examples, right? However, I want to know your opinion on the topic if you have one. For example, what will you do in a similar case? Do you think authors are blinded by the additional info they have, or readers misunderstand things?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Like any good policeman or lawyer would say

It depends on circumstances
So depending on which series, what looks like the heroine(s), the repercussions
I would choose whichever i think is best choice

First of all, if you used any pics I can't see them without VPN. Second, from what I understand you mentioned a couple of examples, right? However, I want to know your opinion on the topic if you have one. For example, what will you do in a similar case? Do you think authors are blinded by the additional info they have, or readers misunderstand things?

Btw didnt add pic
but ty for reminder i will try to remember that

Until my fish brain (cpu) forget it

 

[laccoff_mawning]

If you don't write harems or love triangles in the first place, this problem is automatically solved.

Just another pro of not writing a harem story

 

[MintiLime]

I think a lot of issues regarding romance is that the partner that works on paper isn’t always the one that triggers emotions of love, closeness, etc.

If the romance is written as an “I can’t help falling in love with you” trope, there has to be actual chemistry. And, fortunately or unfortunately, the readers often can determine that better than author, as they are less biased by a pre-planned plot. They see it for what it is.

If the characters’ love is based on trust, friendship, and loyalty that grows to become love, the author’s plot becomes more important and more believable. Two characters without “sparks” can fall in love and have a deep and fulfilling love, just like in real life.

If the argument is about the readers wanting the sparks and the author wanting the slow burn, I would side with the author. Then FanFiction can do the rest.

For example, I love the Phantom of the Opera. I’m 100000% rooting for the Phantom (enigmatic murderer with childhood trauma) the whole time, but I understand WHY Raoul (childhood friend and certified rich dude) was endgame. I wouldn’t change the story for the world as it is perfect as is, and Christine running off with the Phantom would destroy so much character development for all parties. Retellings and fanfictions and all those can give me the ending I wish for myself but would never want for the original.

My Fair Lady the musical ends with Eliza and the jerk Professor because they have that spark. In the book, she ditched his condescending derrière and gets together with the sweet man that appreciates her for who she is. It’s all a matter of preference.

There are tons more examples in classic literature. Charles Dickens tends to have the MC get together with the flame, realize the shortcomings and issues, and then find the love based on trust.

 

[Deleted member 68927]

That is why I don't fear the, how was it called again? NTR something, I think. No Pantser is going to ignore the vibes between the characters! And if the author ignores the vibes, then this person is no true Pantser! A Pantser explores everything, and lets the heart show the way! Funny enough, Pantser is Tank in German. And like a Tank, I will run the Main Love Interest down into the Mud if he is not good enough! For everything else, I have harems.
Real harems.
Not the MC liking one above the rest. Not some cardboard figure who are so two dimensional, that they might as well be made from cardboard. Cut with a blunt and rusted kitchen fruit knife! The MC is either going to love each one of his Harem members, or the neglected ones are going to ditch his ass!
And since I don't have an outline hanging over my head, I can say that yes, I write for myself. But I write while listening to the characters. So, in a sense, I write for them too because I want my word vomit children to get their happy ever after!
I hope that answers your question.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

If you don't write harems or love triangles in the first place, this problem is automatically solved.

Just another pro of not writing a harem story

Yes and no. MC can break-up with one partner and start dating with another one. Without any love triangles or harems. It can happen. Kinda like how it happens in real life.

I think a lot of issues regarding romance is that the partner that works on paper isn’t always the one that triggers emotions of love, closeness, etc.

If the romance is written as an “I can’t help falling in love with you” trope, there has to be actual chemistry. And, fortunately or unfortunately, the readers often can determine that better than author, as they are less biased by a pre-planned plot. They see it for what it is.

If the characters’ love is based on trust, friendship, and loyalty that grows to become love, the author’s plot becomes more important and more believable. Two characters without “sparks” can fall in love and have a deep and fulfilling love, just like in real life.

If the argument is about the readers wanting the sparks and the author wanting the slow burn, I would side with the author. Then FanFiction can do the rest.

For example, I love the Phantom of the Opera. I’m 100000% rooting for the Phantom (enigmatic murderer with childhood trauma) the whole time, but I understand WHY Raoul (childhood friend and certified rich dude) was endgame. I wouldn’t change the story for the world as it is perfect as is, and Christine running off with the Phantom would destroy so much character development for all parties. Retellings and fanfictions and all those can give me the ending I wish for myself but would never want for the original.

My Fair Lady the musical ends with Eliza and the jerk Professor because they have that spark. In the book, she ditched his condescending derrière and gets together with the sweet man that appreciates her for who she is. It’s all a matter of preference.

There are tons more examples in classic literature. Charles Dickens tends to have the MC get together with the flame, realize the shortcomings and issues, and then find the love based on trust.

Yeah, you mention classic as examples. But I was talking about web\light novels since they are different.

That is why I don't fear the, how was it called again? NTR something, I think. No Pantser is going to ignore the vibes between the characters! And if the author ignores the vibes, then this person is no true Pantser! A Pantser explores everything, and lets the heart show the way! Funny enough, Pantser is Tank in German. And like a Tank, I will run the Main Love Interest down into the Mud if he is not good enough! For everything else, I have harems.
Real harems.
Not the MC liking one above the rest. Not some cardboard figure who are so two dimensional, that they might as well be made from cardboard. Cut with a blunt and rusted kitchen fruit knife! The MC is either going to love each one of his Harem members, or the neglected ones are going to ditch his ass!
And since I don't have an outline hanging over my head, I can say that yes, I write for myself. But I write while listening to the characters. So, in a sense, I write for them too because I want my word vomit children to get their happy ever after!
I hope that answers your question.

Bruh. The way you look at this is way too one-sided.

 

[MintiLime]

Yes and no. MC can break-up with one partner and start dating with another one. Without any love triangles or harems. It can happen. Kinda like how it happens in real life.

Yeah, you mention classic as examples. But I was talking about web\light novels since they are different.

Bruh. The way you look at this is way too one-sided.

Charles Dickens was the light novel of his time. His stories were released as serials. There’s even a story about his one issue of The Olde Curiousity Shoppe ended on a cliffhanger, so American readers waited by the docks for the shipment of the next chapter to come in.

I think my points are applicable to light novels as well. I used classics as examples as they are more widely known and stood the test of time. They are all types of media and literature.

The main difference lies in that the authors are subjected to pressure throughout the writing process rather than after publication (although with novel series this often has little difference as the pressure is applied to the next release, with the release being book 2 rather than chapter 2).

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Charles Dickens was the light novel of his time. His stories were released as serials. There’s even a story about his one issue of The Olde Curiousity Shoppe ended on a cliffhanger, so American readers waited by the docks for the shipment of the next chapter to come in.

I think my points are applicable to light novels as well. I used classics as examples as they are more widely known and stood the test of time. They are all types of media and literature.

I have to respectfully disagree. They are totally different. But I don't want this thread to become a discussion about differences between LN's and classics. So I ask you to stop it here. If you want to continue this discussion, you can PM me, write a message on my profile, or make a new thread.

 

[MintiLime]

I have to respectfully disagree. They are totally different. But I don't want this thread to become a discussion about differences between LN's and classics. So I ask you to stop it here. If you want to continue this discussion, you can PM me, write a message on my profile, or make a new thread.

No problem, definitely no desire to completely derail the conversation. Agree to disagree.

what are your thoughts on the matter? Are you thinking of the dilemma as writer or reader?

 

[Tempokai]

This explains why 57% Korean romance novels have yandere obsessed with MLs, because they write for themselves (lol)

 

[RepresentingWrath]

No problem, definitely no desire to completely derail the conversation. Agree to disagree.

what are your thoughts on the matter? Are you thinking of the dilemma as writer or reader?

My opinion is that it's really difficult to balance. What readers think is very important, maybe even equally important to what author thinks. I also think that a lot of writers suffer from hubris, and as I said, think that others failed, but they won't since they are better. I also think, that at least when you earn money from writing, you don't have to cater to readers, but you should listen to them very intently. You are alone, and you have your own bias. Yet there are many readers, and if their opinions align, perhaps you, an author, are simply stubborn. And this stubbornness ruins a lot of good things.