What Do You Think About These Stories?

[Kureous]

So, I'm a very open person. I want to learn everything and explore as many topics as possible, which sometimes reflects in my writing. However, I don't know if that is always the best, so I wanted to ask: What do you guys think about stories without a clearly defined 'good guy' and 'bad guy'?

 

[Deleted member 113259]

Not black and white enough for my taste.

 

[Kureous]

Not black and white enough for my taste.

Yeah, I get that.

 

[LilRora]

That would depend exactly what kind of story we're talking about , but I generally really don't like when something's portayed as straight up 'good' or 'bad'. Almost everything and everyone has good and bad points, as well as circumstances and conditions that can greatly affect how they're seen.

That does include the stereotypical Demon Lord and Hero pair, and it's actually a good example. A Hero who kills mindless spawn does indeed look good, but when those demons have intelligence on similar level to humans, it starts to get trickier. That is also when I can't bear it when the Hero is portrayed unquestionably as the good guy... because what? Because he's fighting on the side of humans? That's just hypocritical, and I don't think I need to explain why.

So, to answer the question, I'm fairly neutral to stories without clearly defined good or bad guy, because that's what reality does. Reality doesn't say someone is the good guy, but people do if they have a reason to - it's all extremely subjective. Stories with clearly defined good or bad guys though, those need to be careful with how they explain why someone is good or bad. I don't have nothing inherently against them, but suspension of disbelief can only take them so far.

 

[expentio]

I believe to be realistic, a character needs reasons. Even the bad guy. Just make him evil because he!s evil makes for a shallow character that can be questioned why they even do all this stuff. At least a villain should have enough agenda to justify taking action in the first place. If they have that they can't be fully black.
Though, with the recent wars IRL I got convinced that some people can be true monsters. Though, they'd need a really good depiction of what made them the way they are.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

So-so.

 

[Deleted member 113259]

I believe to be realistic, a character needs reasons. Even the bad guy. Just make him evil because he!s evil makes for a shallow character that can be questioned why they even do all this stuff. At least a villain should have enough agenda to justify taking action in the first place. If they have that they can't be fully black.
Though, with the recent wars IRL I got convinced that some people can be true monsters. Though, they'd need a really good depiction of what made them the way they are.

1. What justifies Hitler taking action?
2. Why would the recent wars show you that when "people can be true monsters" is a basic historical fact?
3. Not what the guy asked. He asked for thoughts on stories with no clear good or bad guy, not stories with clear good and bad guys that have depth.

 

[Tempokai]

Sometimes "gray zone" stories tend to over dramatize and make everyone look bad, even if it isn't justified. Or simply make everyone morally ambiguous so the brooding anti hero had no remorse in killing everyone. I'm looking at you, CN webnovel authors

 

[BearlyAlive]

Gray zones are fun to explore, but only morally gray gets a bit boring. That's like serving pasta to pasta with a side of pasta. And no sauce. No sauce! What kind of villain does that?!

You need black and white for the gray to really shine

 

[gaylolis]

so basically everyone's a normal guy. does slice of life count?

i'm a slice of life enjoyer myself.

 

[APieceOfRock]

1. What justifies Hitler taking action?
2. Why would the recent wars show you that when "people can be true monsters" is a basic historical fact?
3. Not what the guy asked. He asked for thoughts on stories with no clear good or bad guy, not stories with clear good and bad guys that have depth.

1 - "Justify taking action" means WHY the guy did it. Not literally justifying his action. So I'm assuming Hitler wanted to push an agenda to achieve his delusions. If not, literally outing a race of people as demons can unify even the most fractured of countries.

2 - People can be monsters, but they always have a reason. It can be mental problems. Indoctrination. Anything you can think of. I'm guessing by "recent wars" you mean the Ukrainian war. One of the reason why Russia is doing it is because Ukraine is close to joining NATO. Imagine how the U.S would react if Mexico or Canada joined a military alliance with China. It probably won't escalate to a war but fishy assassinations and sanctions will definitely take place.

3 - Yep, a bit off topic. But that's basically any discussions online anyways.

 

[Bobple]

So, I'm a very open person. I want to learn everything and explore as many topics as possible, which sometimes reflects in my writing. However, I don't know if that is always the best, so I wanted to ask: What do you guys think about stories without a clearly defined 'good guy' and 'bad guy'?

Depends.

I love to read, so stories with clear good and bad guys are fun, stories where everything is in shades of grey are fun, stories with a bunch of normal dudes, etc.

They can be harder to write, depending if the sides are conflict with each other, which can lead to worse quality if not done well. A lot of stories with conflict and no clear defined good/bad guys, tend to end up with a "Hey, Here is a new Evil" to deal with at some point. Not always though.

There is nothing wrong with it, and it is a fun way to write, but like every thing in story telling, it has its ups and downs, and its own fault that it can fall into.

 

[Deleted member 113259]

1 - "Justify taking action" means WHY the guy did it. Not literally justifying his action. So I'm assuming Hitler wanted to push an agenda to achieve his delusions. If not, literally outing a race of people as demons can unify even the most fractured of countries.

2 - People can be monsters, but they always have a reason. It can be mental problems. Indoctrination. Anything you can think of. I'm guessing by "recent wars" you mean the Ukrainian war. One of the reason why Russia is doing it is because Ukraine is close to joining NATO. Imagine how the U.S would react if Mexico or Canada joined a military alliance with China. It probably won't escalate to a war but fishy assassinations and sanctions will definitely take place.

3 - Yep, a bit off topic. But that's basically any discussions online anyways.

1. What does that have to do with being a clear bad guy then? Keep in mind the guy thought the topic was about only making your villains evil for the sake of being evil. (Which describes Hitler perfectly.)

2. I didn't mean anything by recent wars. I'm using that guy's words, and saying it doesn't make sense for current events to show you people can be terrible when people have always been like that.

 

[ACertainPassingUser]

Don't use the standard of War-time society during peaceful-time society.

Things considered Evil in peaceful time may be quite the norm in War-time, and Kindness in War-time may be considered evil in peaceful society.

 

[laccoff_mawning]

If you are talking about moral ambiguity:

I generally dislike moral ambiguity. White is white and black is black. Grey is just black thats been disguised well.
Furthermore I dislike drama, and usually shades of grey come with drama.
Making non-villian characters be jerks are fine, and making a villian have a conscious is fine.

If you aren't talking about moral ambiguity, but more from a plot perspective:

And as someone else already alluded to, stories aren't always about conflicts between good and evil. Slice of life stories don't really have a "bad guy" or a "hero" to them, so I guess that fits your description?
Slice of life, romance, and comedy are all fine genres if done correctly, but those genres don't need to have a strong sense of good and evil characters.

 

[MintiLime]

I like stories where everyone is a bit of both, but I think at the end of the day some are going to be more on one side of the spectrum than the other. Sometimes really good stories show the progression from just normal grey to more and more of black and white. Your choices are going to eventually help or hurt people, and so a story’s action usually ends up showing a character’s morality. I think the best kinds show how one person’s hero can be the villain in another person’s story, and sometimes that’s ok.

 

[expentio]

1. What justifies Hitler taking action?
2. Why would the recent wars show you that when "people can be true monsters" is a basic historical fact?
3. Not what the guy asked. He asked for thoughts on stories with no clear good or bad guy, not stories with clear good and bad guys that have depth.

One can probably see here shades of black.
Hitler was quite influenced by his own propaganda. I won't deny that he was an absolute monster, though Goebbels could be even worse, but in his own wretched mind Hitler, for example, blamed Jews for everything that ever went wrong in his and everyone else's life, believing in the grand world conspiracy. This was naturally unjustified, narrow-minded, and radically discriminatory, which are things to be seen as being evil. However, it was an agenda and no fun pastime. He and all the national socialism could be seen as conspirational madness. The same as we see today when people start believing every lie they are told and are willing to go to the greatest lengths to fight the enemy they made out to be. Propaganda is that powerful.

I'll give you that people like Goebbels just have done it for power, which can very well be seen as pure evil.

What I meant by monsters are those who apparently can kill women and children without remorse. Like Wagner mercenaries who defile bodies and play with cut-off heads. In some way, this savagery without reason is its own class and that's something I mostly see in recent wars in our globalized world with fluid fronts, yet maybe I'm only more aware of it due to the greater amount of media that displays it. However, usually, I try to look behind to see why people would go that far. Many atrocities in historic wars had a cause. Hatred that was long cultivated. People who just kill out of a sense of superiority are probably the minority. Even fewer there are, I hope so at least, those who just kill for the savage fun of it.

I seriously hope nobody sees any kind of support for those things in this comment. There is nothing to support about discrimination, murder, and genocide. But what I was trying to say is that in my own personal opinion, I find evil without reason, without any further thought behind but the evil act itself, to be so absolute that it seems like a distant cliche and is hard to come by.
Yet then I watch the news.

 

[APieceOfRock]

1. What does that have to do with being a clear bad guy then? Keep in mind the guy thought the topic was about only making your villains evil for the sake of being evil. (Which describes Hitler perfectly.)

2. I didn't mean anything by recent wars. I'm using that guy's words, and saying it doesn't make sense for current events to show you people can be terrible when people have always been like that.

1 - because you asked.

2 - okay I conceded on that point. I only really skimmed through the guy's comment

 

[Deleted member 113259]

Alright. Seems like everything is cleared up and we can all agree Hitler is bad.

 

[Deleted member 113259]

Personally, I think Hitler was a tragic hero. A lot of the stuff said about him and the Nazies was clearly made up to justify the human rights abuses and war crimes against the Germans, and to prop up the liberal world order against future nationalism. Like seriously? You expect people to believe they tricked all the Jews into showers, but then, surprise! It's actually poison gas! Yeah that shit definitely didn't happen. ?

Nope

No one likes a contrarian.