How much you went all out to create your story?

[Ral]

Am I really wrong? Especially given the context of the discussion?

 

[Ral]

Yes.

No.

 

[AliceShiki]

Because you have additional details to work with.

... That doesn't make it harder though?

And you need world buidling to explain these things. The culture, the society, the history and whatever.

You... Don't? Or at least not much anyways.

If you want to make a romance between a fairy and a person, there are obvious issues between sizes, you don't need to explain that to your reader, they aren't dumb.

And if you want to make a romance between a summoned elemental (assume the summon isn't permanent and only lasts a few hours or a few days) and a person, then you run into the issue that they need to constantly live in a situation of going in between normal relationship and long distance relationship. And again, biology issues.

You reaaaaally don't need much work to explain those things.

And this is unintersting. The details are essentially "magic did it."

And of course, these additional details you need to keep track of and keep straight. This is where world building in fantasy quickly becomes a mess. The authors tend to forget stuff.

And now you need to keep track of your made up things and keep them from contradictingeach other.

Forgetting stuff that is relevant is basically a trait of bad writing, to stop yourself from forgetting, all you need is notes document. And that isn't very hard to keep track of.

And it's not like it would be very interesting to read about the efficacy of oils people used to apply to their hair back in the medieval days either, what matters is the reaction the protagonist has to such product and how they feel it was an improvement or a detriment to what they had to use before they got access to a better product... Which can be made of a specific material or can just be magical... Either way is fine.

So... "Magic did it" doesn't make it any more or less interesting anyways, it just makes it easier to portray.

And again, more details to keep track of and keep straight. And with details like this, you need to show how these things affect the people.

... How hard it is to show how having different social classes affects people? It's as easy as showing poverty in some parts of the kingdom and prosperity in the royal palace.

Then why are you work as little as possible on the fantasy elements.

... Because they're a tool? Not the focus of the story? That's a big part of my entire point... >.>

And you are adding unnecessary things. If it has no purpose, why is it there?

*siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiighs*

Okay, think of it like this... If you go read LotR, you'll see a LOT, but a LOOOOOOOOT of mostly unnecessary description of locations that won't be used for anything and is essentially a waste of time to read, yet Tolkien did it anyways.

If you go read the Iliad, you'll see pages and more pages of descriptions of the Greek's fleet, their generals, how many ships there were under each general, how many people manned each ship, and what kind of ships were in each fleet. Does any of this ever matter? No. In addition, this is the most boring part of the story by a large margin, yet it was done so anyways.

In a chivalry romance whose name I already forgot that was written during the late medieval period (or was it during renaissance? My memory is fuzzy right now, I read it back when I was still in uni...), there was a part of two and a half pages in which the protagonist was visiting a memorial of great knights and he kept on describing a bunch of the crests, reading who they belonged to and the feats of said knight. Was this used in any shape or form? No. Yet it was still there, and the book is one of the best novels of its period.

If you go read Harry Potter, you'll see them having classes about how to learn the levitation spell and see Rony having trouble learning it. Only to have him do it right on the first try in an opportunity he actually needed to make it work. Was there any point in making him have issues learning it in the first place? Not really.

In Dragon Ball Z, it was stated that there were 4 Kaiohshins, one for each Cardinal Direction and one Daikaiohshin to rule over them. Yet none of them ever appeared nor was developed because they were all eaten by Buu. Was there really any purpose in having 4 Kaiohshins then? Their only purpose of existence was to give the West Kaiohshin a sad backstory, but couldn't that be done by just having the Daikaiohshin dying instead of all 3 + Daikaiohshin? There isn't really any reason to have one kaiohshin for each cardinal region (rather, this point is so irrelevant that the people that made Dragon Ball Super actually forgot about it. Talk about bad writing~), yet Toriyama put one in those anyways.

What's the point of this exemplification? Well... Often times you will see things that don't have a big impact on the story, other times you'll see things that have 0 impact on the story, yet they exist anyways and don't make the story worse by existing. And why do they exist? Well... Because it was important to the author of course, because the author wanted it there and felt that it was adding something worthwhile to the story, even if it was quite pointless to the reader.

That's all there is to it. I'm adding something that is worth it for me, that much is enough.

If you want to write Girl's Love Story then you work the most with the love aspect. I mean, why would you want to write a Girl's Love Story then develop it as little as possible?

I don't think you understood my point.

You're trying to compare medi-fantasy with historical fantasy. Two different genres that are only made different because of the fantasy aspect. And you say you shouldn't make a fantasy story if you can't make the fantasy aspect matter.

So I made a parallel with Heterosexual Romance and Homosexual Romance. Which are again, two different genres whose only difference is the gender of one of the characters. According to your logic, I shouldn't make a homosexual romance story unless I was planning to focus my story on the homosexuality and the implications that this kind of relationship brings with it... Which is something that makes no sense to me, I can make a homosexual romance because I want to, I don't need to focus on the homosexual part of the romance to make it a proper romance story.

In a similar vein, I don't need to focus on the fantasy part to make a medi-fantasy story work.

Okay. I already made a point of this before. If you want to write other things like romance or mystery or girl's love, you would work on the most on their respective centerpiece. But if you want to write fantasy you would work the least on the fantasy elements? How is that the same thing? Isn't it the complete opposite?

... Because fantasy is not my centerpiece? It's a tool, it's not my centerpiece.

The centerpiece of my story is the romance, or the slice of life, not the fantasy. The fantasy is a part of the whole, but not the focus.

And that could result to your story being boring or uninteresting or just a plain mess. Just because you don't care about it doesn't make it not so.

Judging by the ratings of my last story, I think I did fine~

Of course it does make it harder than normal. You essentially working with two genres at once. What is easier writing a slice of life story based on your real life set in your familiar real world or write a slice-of-life story in a historical fantasy setting? It is obvious isn't it?

And as I said, you need to keep track of the made up things you made.

I noticed that you also kinda adding historical fiction to the pool, which also requires a lot of world building and reasearch, but let us ignore that since we are talking fantasy.

As I said, you need to keep track of your made up things. This is where authors here often fucked up because they can't keep their details straight.

Wait, you're trying to compare modern stories with fantasy stories? Uhn... The hell? Like, seriously, the hell? How do you even try to compare those two? There is hardly anything comparable in them.

If I want to make a romance between characters in a modern setting, I need to make them worry about stuff like exams, preparing themselves for the future, finding out what they want to do, the cram before uni entrance exams, the university life, trying to find a job, trying to find time to spare between family and work and other stuff like that.

OTOH, if I want to make a romance in a medi-fantasy setting, I need to make them worry about stuff like... Staying alive, not angering nobles, interracial relationships, finding shelter in a forest to protect themselves from the rain, getting a herb to heal a friend that was poisoned and other stuff like that... Like... Hello? How do you even compare those 2 settings? They have basically nothing to do with one another. The story that comes out of a medi-fantasy romance and a modern romance is completely different, you can't really compare both.

If you wanna compare anything with fantasy, it's obviously a medieval setting, because the worries are basically the same as you'd have in medi-fantasy and you could make a similar story with both settings. From that point on, all you need to choose is the one you're more comfortable with and then start writing and doing research as needed.

And like, Medieval settings needs a lot of research and a lot of notes anyways, just like medi-fantasy needs. I don't think there is a big difference between making a note that says "Kingdom A's royal family claims that they have the right to rule their lands due to the deities giving them their blessing." to making a note saying "Kingdom A's royal family rules because the gods gave them their blessing." The former is a medieval example, while the latter is a medi-fantasy example. Or a note that says "Kingdom A is constantly threatened by bandit attacks" when compared to "Kingdom A is constantly threatened by Goblin attacks." Like... It really doesn't take more work to keep track of the details of a medi-fantasy setting when compared to a medieval setting.

Like, sure, if I wanted to make a modern setting romance I'd probably need to keep track of less things and make less notes, but then my story would be completely different and would have nothing to do with my original plans, so it's not like this is a real option.

Also, you just happened to ignore some of the key arguments I made, that medi-fantasy actively makes you have more options to play with that you can't use in a medieval romance. Like, again. A romance between a human and a fairy has practical issues due to one being 10x bigger than the other. You don't have this kind of issue in the story if you make it a medieval setting, and this can totally be a centerpiece part of the story, because it's a real issue that gets in the way of their relationship.

True. It is what we called preference. But when it comes to Fantasy, it is the setting that makes people interested in fantasy. Why we like fantasy? Because of the magic and mosters and magic races and such. The fantastical world.

If as person isn't interested in the setting (in Fantasy this would be magic and magic beast and what not) then they would not like to read fantasy stories or other setting centric stories like science fiction or historical fiction.

Depends on the person, like... Yes, I certainly like fantasy because of monsters, magic and what not, but... I don't really care for the details of the world, I care about how the author will play with the tools that fantasy provide.

I don't care about the details of the magic system, I'll probably forget them in a few hours anyways, I care about what you'll use your magic for and what you'll do with it.

Really depends on what each person is seeking when reading stories~

Am I really wrong? Especially given the context of the discussion?

You're trying to say that 50+% of the fantasy stories are adventure stories... Considering that there are a dozen+ other genres out there to compete with Adventure, I think it's statistically unlikely for Fantasy stories to have their majority being Adventure Stories.

I don't have any data to back this claim though, but it just seems extremely unlikely for you to be right in here.

 

[Ral]

Forgetting stuff that is relevant is basically a trait of bad writing, to stop yourself from forgetting, all you need is notes document. And that isn't very hard to keep track of.

Remember this because it would become important later.

And it's not like it would be very interesting to read about the efficacy of oils people used to apply to their hair back in the medieval days either, what matters is the reaction the protagonist has to such product and how they feel it was an improvement or a detriment to what they had to use before they got access to a better product... Which can be made of a specific material or can just be magical... Either way is fine.

So don't bother with it. As simple as that. You don't need magic to explain it or anything. Just don't talk about it. That would have been simpler right?

In a chivalry romance whose name I already forgot that was written during the late medieval period (or was it during renaissance? My memory is fuzzy right now, I read it back when I was still in uni...), there was a part of two and a half pages in which the protagonist was visiting a memorial of great knights and he kept on describing a bunch of the crests, reading who they belonged to and the feats of said knight. Was this used in any shape or form? No. Yet it was still there, and the book is one of the best novels of its period.

And because it was one of the best novels you think everything it did is right? That it has no flaws?

Seriously, even this claimed fiction has their critics.

Though, from the sound of it, those details are kinda important, especially considering the time it was written. Knighthood is really important in those times. It probably is used to characterize the protagonist about how highly he thought about knighthood. Not sure, but seems like it.

Not to mention, people at those times are very interested about knights. I mean, these things aren't just for entertainment, like stories are now days, but also a means of education, since, you know, people are mostly illiterate at those times?

If you go read Harry Potter, you'll see them having classes about how to learn the levitation spell and see Rony having trouble learning it. Only to have him do it right on the first try in an opportunity he actually needed to make it work. Was there any point in making him have issues learning it in the first place? Not really.

But you need to show that these spells are thought to them no? Say, you take away that scene. Then when characters are using that spell then the spell seems to come out of nowhere and seems like a Deus Ex Machina. You know, foreshadowing and Chekhov's Gun? They put a lot of attention to it because it would become important later.

What's the point of this exemplification? Well... Often times you will see things that don't have a big impact on the story, other times you'll see things that have 0 impact on the story, yet they exist anyways and don't make the story worse by existing. And why do they exist? Well... Because it was important to the author of course, because the author wanted it there and felt that it was adding something worthwhile to the story, even if it was quite pointless to the reader.

But your examples are either has purpose, flavor or just bad writing. They don't really prove or disprove anything.

You're trying to compare medi-fantasy with historical fantasy. Two different genres that are only made different because of the fantasy aspect. And you say you shouldn't make a fantasy story if you can't make the fantasy aspect matter.

You shouldn't, but there are stories that make use of the fantasy elements. Just think of Lord of the Rings or Avatar: The Last Airbender or Fullmetal Alchemist. The fantasy elements there are integral part of the story.

So I made a parallel with Heterosexual Romance and Homosexual Romance. Which are again, two different genres whose only difference is the gender of one of the characters. According to your logic, I shouldn't make a homosexual romance story unless I was planning to focus my story on the homosexuality and the implications that this kind of relationship brings with it... Which is something that makes no sense to me, I can make a homosexual romance because I want to, I don't need to focus on the homosexual part of the romance to make it a proper romance story.

Come on. There is a different between Heterosexual Romance and Homosexual Romance. If you do write Homosexual Romance like it was Heterosexual Romance, then the Homosexual elements doesn't matter. Why bother with it at all?

The centerpiece of my story is the romance, or the slice of life, not the fantasy. The fantasy is a part of the whole, but not the focus.

But from what you comments it is more of to make it easier to explain things. Fantasy seems to have nothing to do with the story other than to hand wave things.

Wait, you're trying to compare modern stories with fantasy stories? Uhn... The hell? Like, seriously, the hell? How do you even try to compare those two? There is hardly anything comparable in them.

When did I do this?

In the first place we are talking about writing. How you go in writing. I really don't understand where you get this from.

I don't care about the details of the magic system, I'll probably forget them in a few hours anyways, I care about what you'll use your magic for and what you'll do with it.

Remember the first part of what you said?

You're trying to say that 50+% of the fantasy stories are adventure stories... Considering that there are a dozen+ other genres out there to compete with Adventure, I think it's statistically unlikely for Fantasy stories to have their majority being Adventure Stories.

This isn't exactly what we are discussing about. Here:

Well, the problem is that you're assuming everyone that makes a story in a medi-fantasy world is trying to make a story that is about the adventure/exploration of the new world and what not... Which more often than not, is not the case.

I don't have any data to back this claim though, but it just seems extremely unlikely for you to be right in here.

And I argue the opposite (and note the exploration part). Well, I assume that you medi-fantasy is essentially like Tolkein's or Song of Ice and Fire or those like Sword in the Stone or something.

You also talked about High Fantasy and Medieval Fantasy can belong to High Fantasy.

Okay. It seems that we are talking about two entirely different things here. What do you exactly mean when you say medi-fantasy?

And why can't I be extremely unlikely? I mean, even those stories like erotica, romance or comedy with fantasy elements almost always involve adventure elements.

It kinda second nature for Fantasy, especially ones that includes magic and fantastical races to have adventure in them primarily because the sources, like Sword int he Stone or Adventures of Robin Hood, often are adventure stories or have heavy amounts of adventure in them.

 

[AliceShiki]

Though, from the sound of it, those details are kinda important, especially considering the time it was written. Knighthood is really important in those times. It probably is used to characterize the protagonist about how highly he thought about knighthood. Not sure, but seems like it.

Ah, I can assure you it wasn't. It was in the latter half of the novel when most of the characterization was done already, and it had like, 0 impact on anything. If anything, it showed that the MC cared and was in awe by seeing all those crests, but you didn't need two and a half pages of crest reading to show that, just a paragraph or two would have been enough... Preferably without actually showing the exact stuff that was in the crest.

It was from the perspective of a modern reader, a pure and complete waste of space. Maybe it had some symbolism involved for a reader of its time period, but I'm no specialist in the involvement between literature, symbolism and nobility back in those days, so... Who knows?

But you need to show that these spells are thought to them no? Say, you take away that scene. Then when characters are using that spell then the spell seems to come out of nowhere and seems like a Deus Ex Machina. You know, foreshadowing and Chekhov's Gun? They put a lot of attention to it because it would become important later.

You missed my point. I said that there was no reason to show Rony having a hard time with the spell, only to have it work perfectly in his first attempt against the troll. I'm not saying there was no point in showing the wizardry classes themselves.

Come on. There is a different between Heterosexual Romance and Homosexual Romance. If you do write Homosexual Romance like it was Heterosexual Romance, then the Homosexual elements doesn't matter. Why bother with it at all?

Because... I don't wanna make a story focused on the intricacies of the romance having two people of the same gender involved? I just wanna make a novel with two girls in love because I feel like it.

Which is basically the same reason why I like writing Fantasy. I feel like it.

But from what you comments it is more of to make it easier to explain things. Fantasy seems to have nothing to do with the story other than to hand wave things.

Except when I want to make a romance between a fairy and a human I guess? Or when I want to make my protagonist have a strong dependency on her significant other and get symptoms of depression whenever she goes away because the summoning magic has run out...

Or when I make the entire plot of my novel revolve around dreams and people having their life force drained by a divine relic until they enter in a comatose, or when I want to make my character fix the mess that another magician made when making a magical oven without knowing the details of how to properly make glyph magic to make sure the enchantment doesn't cause problems in the long run...

And like, do my readers know how glyph magic works? Nope. Do I know it? Absolutely not! Does my protagonist knows though? Yes, she does. So she can solve the problems caused by someone making half-baked glyphs even though I have no clue how the glyph magic works in my own story.

... See? I don't need to properly build how magic functions in order to use the fantasy elements to make my story function. They're a tool in my arsenal, not the focus.

When did I do this?

In the first place we are talking about writing. How you go in writing. I really don't understand where you get this from.

The part you mentioned you wouldn't talk about historical medieval because it is a whole different can of worms. If you aren't comparing fantasy to non-fantasy in medieval settings, I just assume you are comparing it to modern settings instead. Oh, and the part you said it would be easier to write Slice of Life based on real life that I experience as opposed to making it in an original setting.

And well, all stories have some setting to them. If you want to say that I shouldn't write fantasy, then this means you want me to write something else, so isn't it natural to make a comparison with the closest alternatives? But when you say you won't touch the subject, it meant to me that you were then comparing it to another much farther alternative.

Remember the first part of what you said?

I don't keep notes of novels written by other people, I keep notes of my own things to make sure I don't cause internal inconsistencies within my own novels.

It's a lot easier for me to forget how magic works in someone else's story than it is to forget in my own.

Okay. It seems that we are talking about two entirely different things here. What do you exactly mean when you say medi-fantasy?

A story that feels like as if it was set in a medieval times, but with fantasy elements in it. (such as magic, multiple races and what not)

Usually speaking I'd also assume it is not set on Earth, but it's fine if it is I guess~

 

[Ral]

When you assume, you make an ass out of u and me etc.

And my assumption is that Alice talk about what Medieval Fantasy usually meant. Something set in a setting that is medieval or medieval-like with fantasy elements in it. This includes many RPG, Isekai and most fantasy anime/manga which Alice doesn't seem to consider as Medieval Fantasy.

Medi-fantasy/medifan is literally just and abbreviation for "medieval fantasy" (or often, medieval-period-adjacent). Fairytales -- and by extension, Disney movies -- are as much "medieval fantasy" as ASoIF or LotR. There is no deeper meaning. It's just a fantasy story set in a medieval or medieval-like setting. Contrast with urban fantasy, which is set in a (often modern or at least contemporary) cityscape.

Thank you for pointing that out even though this might not be what Alice meant when she said medi-fantasy.

Robin Hood isn't medifan. It's historical fiction. So dunno why you named that one as an example.

And I didn't say it was. I said that these are sources of medieval fantasy.

I wouldn't call "Cinderella" an adventure or exploration story, but it is about a girl in a medieval setting who gets magical ballgowns because of a fairy casting magic spells. The Little Mermaid is not an adventure or exploration story, but it's about mermaids and magic (Inb4 "but there are just as many fairytales that are adventure stories eg. Jack and the Beanstalk" but the point is that there are also just as many that are not, and are using fantasy as a means of metaphor or plot device to streamline a non-adventure story and arguing that one exists does not invalidate the existence of another). Other, non-fairytale examples: Midsummer Night's Dream is a rom-com about fairies and actors doing shenanigans, no adventure or exploration, and that's definitely medieval fantasy. AliceShiki's stories are fantasy stories without necessarily adventure elements -- and just because you personally feel that... actually I don't know what you feel, that she's doing it wrong? That people aren't allowed to do fantasy stories in fictional worlds unless it's within a certain genre and they put in a pre-determined amount of worldbuilding that meets your personal, subjective standards? But just because you feel they're somehow not feasible doesn't discount the fact that they exist, and are ongoing living examples of fantasy stories without adventure elements. Hell, if I wanted to get really petty, I could point out literally the majority of isekai novels that get translated that actively market themselves as being adventure stories that often end up being slice-of-life stories about cooking or making perfume or whatever with no adventure in them whatsoever.

And then you do cherry picking even though you already given examples where adventure is the primary part of the story (ASoIF or LotR). And just because they have slice-of-life elements doesn't mean they don't have adventure/exploration elements in them. I mean I can do the reverse. Those stories that market themselves as slice-of-life stories ends up becoming adventure stories.

You assertion that medieval fantasy is synonymous with adventure is wrong because you're not only framing this within a very narrow framework of what you've seem to read only, but also giving completely inaccurate examples of what you count as medieval fantasy so you're clearly operating on a different wavelength altogether.

I didn't. I just said that most of these stories are adventure stories too.

As for different wavelengths you should look at a mirror. At least, I asked Alice for clarification.

Also you're basically reaching into pure pedantry in half your arguments (and they are arguments -- this is not a discussion or a polite debate, you're literally just arguing and half the time it's over semantics), so I have literally no idea what it is you're after with this whole exercise.

What I'm after? If you fucking write a fantasy story better make an effort to write one. Don't you dare tell me that you just used magic as an excuse not to do research or tell me you barely bother with the fantasy elements at all.

Anyway. Looking forward to your petty and tedious sentence-by-sentence breakdown quote reply that I won't be reading because it's just such a tiresome way to argue.

Talk about petty. Pot calling the kettle black.

 

[AliceShiki]

And my assumption is that Alice talk about what Medieval Fantasy usually meant. Something set in a setting that is medieval or medieval-like with fantasy elements in it. This includes many PRG, Isekai and most fantasy anime/manga which Alice doesn't seem to consider as Medieval Fantasy.

Thank you for pointing that out even though this might not be what Alice meant when she said medi-fantasy.

And I didn't say it was. I said that these are sources of medieval fantasy.

And then you cherry picking even though you already given examples where adventure is the primary part of the story (ASoIF or LotR). And just because they have slice-of-life elements doesn't mean they don't have adventure/exploration elements in them. I mean I can do the reverse. Those stories that market themselves as slice-of-life stories ends up becoming adventure stories.

I didn't. I just said that most of these stories are adventure stories.

As for different wavelengths you should look at a mirror. At least, I asked Alice for clarification.

What I'm after? If you fucking write a fantasy story better make an effort to write one. Don't you dare tell me that you just used magic as an excuse not to do research or tell me you barely bother with the fantasy elements at all.

Talk about petty. Pot calling the kettle black.

Seems like you missed my last post, scroll above.

 

[Ral]

Ah, I can assure you it wasn't. It was in the latter half of the novel when most of the characterization was done already, and it had like, 0 impact on anything. If anything, it showed that the MC cared and was in awe by seeing all those crests, but you didn't need two and a half pages of crest reading to show that, just a paragraph or two would have been enough... Preferably without actually showing the exact stuff that was in the crest.

It was from the perspective of a modern reader, a pure and complete waste of space. Maybe it had some symbolism involved for a reader of its time period, but I'm no specialist in the involvement between literature, symbolism and nobility back in those days, so... Who knows?

That is the point. It is not for the modern readers. We have like education and internet and pictures and what not now. The people of those times doesn't. These kind of things would be very interesting to them and important in understanding the story. Also, knighthood was very important in those times and hearing anything about them would arouse people's interest. Now knighthood is interesting mostly to historians.

Again, these stories are usually not only for entertainment but also for education. You might even call them propaganda. There is just no other else where they could learn these things.

You missed my point. I said that there was no reason to show Rony having a hard time with the spell, only to have it work perfectly in his first attempt against the troll. I'm not saying there was no point in showing the wizardry classes themselves.

In the fight with the troll, Ron pronounced it right. Again, Chekhov's gun. If you want to go deeper there is also the added element of tension. Only Ron is capable of doing something in the fight, would he get the incantation right? But mostly Chekhov's gun, your attention is focused on Ron and therefor there is something important in the future that concerns Ron. Also foreshadowing. The magic would be important later.

Because... I don't wanna make a story focused on the intricacies of the romance having two people of the same gender involved? I just wanna make a novel with two girls in love because I feel like it.

Which is basically the same reason why I like writing Fantasy. I feel like it.

Okay, this isn't actually bad. You can write that way. But if you want to write it, why you skimp on it? Why write a girl love if you don't explore what make it unique and make it like any generic love story? Why use fantasy if you are not going to use its strengths, that is, to add nuance and depth to your story?

I just don't understand. Why add those things if they don't matter in the end?

Except when I want to make a romance between a fairy and a human I guess? Or when I want to make my protagonist have a strong dependency on her significant other and get symptoms of depression whenever she goes away because the summoning magic has run out...

Or when I make the entire plot of my novel revolve around dreams and people having their life force drained by a divine relic until they enter in a comatose, or when I want to make my character fix the mess that another magician made when making a magical oven without knowing the details of how to properly make glyph magic to make sure the enchantment doesn't cause problems in the long run...

And like, do my readers know how glyph magic works? Nope. Do I know it? Absolutely not! Does my protagonist knows though? Yes, she does. So she can solve the problems caused by someone making half-baked glyphs even though I have no clue how the glyph magic works in my own story.

... See? I don't need to properly build how magic functions in order to use the fantasy elements to make my story function. They're a tool in my arsenal, not the focus.

See? You are doing world building already even though those are hypothetical. You explore your fantastical concept.

And I didn't talk about jsut explaining how things work (you often should not do that in Fantasy stories) but world buidling. Essentially how this elements affect your story. In your example you have this fairy and human romance, then you have build from and around this concept. What is the relationship between fairies and humans? What culture do they have? Their abilities? How does courtship work with each species? What effect does their difference in species have on their relationship? This is what world building is. The fantasy elements that you add in your story have an effect on the story and it is this exploration of the effect that makes fantasy fantasy. What makes it interesting.

The part you mentioned you wouldn't talk about historical medieval because it is a whole different can of worms. If you aren't comparing fantasy to non-fantasy in medieval settings, I just assume you are comparing it to modern settings instead. Oh, and the part you said it would be easier to write Slice of Life based on real life that I experience as opposed to making it in an original setting.

And well, all stories have some setting to them. If you want to say that I shouldn't write fantasy, then this means you want me to write something else, so isn't it natural to make a comparison with the closest alternatives? But when you say you won't touch the subject, it meant to me that you were then comparing it to another much farther alternative.

Oh? That one. I only said that because we are talking about fantasy in general. That is what the original poster was asking about. It seems in our discussion you shifted to medieval fantasy. I just make a note of that.

I didn't say you should not write fantasy but that you should work on the fantasy elements if you going to write one. I mean, from your comments it seems that you are just using magic to handwave stuff away instead of exploring the fantasy elements. This result to making your setting boring or uninteresting and if you don't keep track of them make your story a mess.

I don't keep notes of novels written by other people, I keep notes of my own things to make sure I don't cause internal inconsistencies within my own novels.

It's a lot easier for me to forget how magic works in someone else's story than it is to forget in my own.

A story that feels like as if it was set in a medieval times, but with fantasy elements in it. (such as magic, multiple races and what not)

Usually speaking I'd also assume it is not set on Earth, but it's fine if it is I guess~

And I like this stories. I would love to have more stories like that.

The thing is most of the problem I found with writers of these stories is that they don't properly world build. The least is that they make the setting dull and boring. I can still go with that as long as the other elements are interesting. Usually this result to a lot of retcons and inconsistent details. Worse are the plot holes and deus ex machinas.

 

[Ral]

Seems like you missed my last post, scroll above.

I didn't. I just replied to flucket first.

 

[AliceShiki]

In the fight with the troll, Ron pronounced it right. Again, Chekhov's gun. If you want to go deeper there is also the added element of tension. Only Ron is capable of doing something in the fight, would he get the incantation right? But mostly Chekhov's gun, your attention is focused on Ron and therefor there is something important in the future that concerns Ron.

I have no idea what Chekhov's gun is.

See? You are doing world building already even though those are hypothetical. You explore your fantastical concept.

And I didn't talk about jsut explaining how things work (you often should not do that in Fantasy stories) but world buidling. Essentially how this elements affect your story. In your example you have this fairy and human romance, then you have build from and around this concept. What is the relationship between fairies and humans? What culture do they have? Their abilities? How does courtship work with each species? What effect does their difference in species have on their relationship? This is what world building is. The fantasy elements that you add in your story have an effect on the story and it is this exploration of the effect that makes fantasy fantasy. What makes it interesting.

None of those examples are hypothetical actually.

Also, I explored none of the things on your 2nd paragraph (except for the last question, I explored the effects their different species have in their relationship), because none of them mattered for my romance novel. I don't care how other fairies and humans interact, nor do I care about their culture nor ability. And when their relationship is already established, I don't care about courtship either... Rather, I don't think I'd even gain anything from making different races do courtship in different ways, so I'd probably just make them court each other the same.

And well, that's my whole point. I don't care nor do I need any of those specific world-building details, because for me they're irrelevant. I care about the stuff that will move my Romance story forward, not the stuff that will enrich my fantasy world.

Oh? That one. I only said that because we are talking about fantasy in general. That is what the original poster was asking about. It seems in our discussion you shifted to medieval fantasy. I just make a note of that.

I didn't say you should write fantasy but that you should work on the fantasy elements if you going to write one. I mean, from your comments it seems that you are just using magic to handwave stuff away instead of exploring the fantasy elements. This result to making your setting boring or uninteresting and if you don't keep track of them make your story a mess.

I switched to medi-fantasy because that's what I write and that's what I read most of the time, so it's much easier to talk about it.

Besides, if you're trying to disagree with the way I write my stories, which are medi-fantasy, it only makes sense I debate on the topic of medi-fantasy in particular.

And I dunno how you think I use magic to handwave stuff when I gave 4 different examples on how I used it in a meaningful way in the same post you're quoting. Your point is kinda falling apart on its own.

And I like this stories. I would love to have more stories like that.

The thing is most of the problem I found with writers of these stories is that they don't properly world build. The least is that they make the setting dull and boring. I can still go with that as long as the other elements are interesting. Usually this result to a lot of retcons and inconsistent details. Worse are the plot holes and deus ex machinas.

You find them dull and boring, I find them good enough to tell the story they're set in. Not all setting need to be particularly unique to make for an interesting story~

You're just searching for something that the author had no intention of delivering in the first place.

... Plot Holes, inconsistent details and deux ex machinas are all just bad writing though. Retcons in webnovels OTOH are fine, sometimes things just change and what you felt was best no longer holds true, so you need to go back and change it.
On published novels though? Then Retcons are a big mess.

 

[binarysoap]

The topic derailed quite a bit from the original, but since the argument doesn't seem to be going anywhere, let me add my two cents.

Fantasy is an extremely broad genre that covers a lot. Clearly Ral is interested in those that have intensive worldbuilding. AliceShiki's story I have read, and the world actually isn't very generic imo. Of course it doesn't delve that deeply into worldbuilding, and it seems like she just used the fantasy as a background piece, because you know, a story has to have kind of setting and she just likes medifantasy, so hence it has that as its setting.

To me, this entire argument seems like two people arguing about the very general topic of food
Ral is saying that what's the point of making a steak dish if you aren't going to put in the effort to make it taste good. Alice is like well, you need to eat food to live and I just happened to like steak, so yeah, my dinner is steak.
Ral asks, well, if you aren't going to put the effort, why steak? Why not a salad, or rice or something. Alice replies with well, steak has that nice protein that lets me have the energy for the day, so why not.
Ral then asks, but where's the fancy spices that make the steak good? LIke make it like outback steakhouse, or something.
And so on.

Do tell me if I misunderstood anything, but to me that's what you guys are arguing about.

 

[Ral]

I have no idea what Chekhov's gun is.

It is a concept where elements that are given special attention creates an expectation about that element. In Ron's case, the focus is put on Ron and learning the magic. Then, there must be something in the future that deals with Ron and learning that magic that would become important later.

None of those examples are hypothetical actually.

Also, I explored none of the things on your 2nd paragraph (except for the last question, I explored the effects their different species have in their relationship), because none of them mattered for my romance novel. I don't care how other fairies and humans interact, nor do I care about their culture nor ability. And when their relationship is already established, I don't care about courtship either... Rather, I don't think I'd even gain anything from making different races do courtship in different ways, so I'd probably just make them court each other the same.

And well, that's my whole point. I don't care nor do I need any of those specific world-building details, because for me they're irrelevant. I care about the stuff that will move my Romance story forward, not the stuff that will enrich my fantasy world.

Okay, think of Romeo and Juliet. Does the family feud not matter? It does and makes the story better for it. Without it, it will have nothing unique or different about it.

And if they are irrelevant why are they there then? This was the same your shampoo example. If it doesn't matter why explain that they use magic for it? If it doesn't matter that the two are of different species, the one is a fairy and the other is a human, then why make them different? Why not just make them both human?

Though, I know it was gimmicky reasons. Two humans falling in love just sounds boring.

But really, from your and binarysoap comments, I don't think you are shirking your world building responsibilities. After all, my questions are just examples. You could deffinitely ask a different set of questions about how this elements affect your story.

I switched to medi-fantasy because that's what I write and that's what I read most of the time, so it's much easier to talk about it.

Besides, if you're trying to disagree with the way I write my stories, which are medi-fantasy, it only makes sense I debate on the topic of medi-fantasy in particular.

And I dunno how you think I use magic to handwave stuff when I gave 4 different examples on how I used it in a meaningful way in the same post you're quoting. Your point is kinda falling apart on its own.

But we started with Fantasy in general so I though we are talking about that. Only later I realize you are talking about a more specific genre of Fantasy so I need to take note of it.

You find them dull and boring, I find them good enough to tell the story they're set in. Not all setting need to be particularly unique to make for an interesting story~

You're just searching for something that the author had no intention of delivering in the first place.

... Plot Holes, inconsistent details and deux ex machinas are all just bad writing though. Retcons in webnovels OTOH are fine, sometimes things just change and what you felt was best no longer holds true, so you need to go back and change it.
On published novels though? Then Retcons are a big mess.

I kinda agree. The setting doesn't have to be unique, but what I'm asking for is that it be properly built. If it is properly build it is instantly interesting. Really, medieval fantasy setting is interesting. In general, it is the setting the makes fantasy interesting.

However, your comments are just advocating for poor world building. Essentially saying don't bother with it. I can't agree with that. If you write a fantasy story, then put effort to it.

 

[Deleted member 266]

If you write a fantasy story, then put effort to it.

Woooh, now that's... a bit of leap....

 

[Ral]

The topic derailed quite a bit from the original, but since the argument doesn't seem to be going anywhere, let me add my two cents.

Fantasy is an extremely broad genre that covers a lot. Clearly Ral is interested in those that have intensive worldbuilding. AliceShiki's story I have read, and the world actually isn't very generic imo. Of course it doesn't delve that deeply into worldbuilding, and it seems like she just used the fantasy as a background piece, because you know, a story has to have kind of setting and she just likes medifantasy, so hence it has that as its setting.

To me, this entire argument seems like two people arguing about the very general topic of food
Ral is saying that what's the point of making a steak dish if you aren't going to put in the effort to make it taste good. Alice is like well, you need to eat food to live and I just happened to like steak, so yeah, my dinner is steak.
Ral asks, well, if you aren't going to put the effort, why steak? Why not a salad, or rice or something. Alice replies with well, steak has that nice protein that lets me have the energy for the day, so why not.
Ral then asks, but where's the fancy spices that make the steak good? LIke make it like outback steakhouse, or something.
And so on.

Do tell me if I misunderstood anything, but to me that's what you guys are arguing about.

We aren't exactly talking just about Fantasy but world building when writing Fantasy.

I am not actually interested with intensive world building (though they can be an added bonus) but about doing it right. If you add fantasy elements in your story, then make use of it and be careful not to make it a detriment to your story.

I mean, you might already read these stories where they put this skill and this magic and later not mention it again or have no effect whatsoever to the story. There are also those that creates plot holes. But worst are the deus-ex-machinas. Because MAGIC. GAH!

The steak analogy doesn't really work well.

Since it is about building the world a more appropriate analogy would be building something say a house.

In my case. It is more like you are building a house then you add battlements around it and then some giant stain glass windows in one of the wall and some stone turrets on the roof because you like them. They have no point there and it actually make the house unlivable but it is there because you liked them.

But for Alice it is more like building a house then adding some medieval flair to it like medieval iron door hinges and small stain glass windows and some old fashioned lighting and colors. At least, that is what I think, with the latest discussion we have. I don't think this is a bad thing as long as you use the medieval elements to improve the house and make it work with the house. And not make it a death hazard.

But the initial comments sound like the previous one where she add things because she just like them with no care how it affects the structure. Later in the discussion it seems she meant that she don't actually want to make a medieval castle but just want a small house with medieval appeal. I actually have nothing against this, after all, you are just using elements from the other structure to enhance your house. This is proper building actually but I was not able to get it from her initial comments.

But yeah. I think we are just talking of two entirely different things.

 

[Ral]

Woooh, now that's... a bit of leap....

How?

What is with people just barging in with almost nothing to say but retarded one liners.

 

[binarysoap]

We aren't exactly talking just about Fantasy but world building when writing Fantasy.

I am not actually interested with intensive world building (though they can be an added bonus) but about doing it right. If you add fantasy elements in your story, then make use of it and be careful not to make it a detriment to your story.

I mean, you might already read these stories where they put this skill and this magic and later not mention it again or have no effect whatsoever to the story. There are also those that creates plot holes. But worst are the deus-ex-machinas. Because MAGIC. GAH!

The steak analogy doesn't really work well.

Since it is about building the world a more appropriate analogy would be building something say a house.

In my case. It is more like you are building a house then you add battlements around it and then some giant stain glass windows in one of the wall and some stone turrets on the roof because you like them. They have no point there and it actually make the house unlivable but it is there because you liked them.

But for Alice it is more like building a house then adding some medieval flair to it like medieval iron door hinges and small stain glass windows and some old fashioned lighting and colors. At least, that is what I think, with the latest discussion we have. I don't think this is a bad thing as long as you use the medieval elements to improve the house and make it work with the house. And not make it a death hazard.

But the initial comments sound like the previous one where she add things because she just like them with no care how it affects the structure. Later in the discussion it seems she meant that she don't actually want to make a medieval castle but just want a small house with medieval appeal. I actually have nothing against this, after all, you are just using elements from the other structure to enhance your house. This is proper building actually but I was not able to get it from her initial comments.

But yeah. I think we are just talking of two entirely different things.

Well this clarifies things.

How?

What is with people just barging in with almost nothing to say but retarded one liners.

It's actually pretty hard to keep up with the arguments since they are kind of long...
Also, I assume it's because you say a phrase that jumps out at people that seems questionable, and they want to tell you you're wrong?
At least they quote the thing they are commenting on

 

[ohko]

We aren't exactly talking just about Fantasy but world building when writing Fantasy.

I am not actually interested with intensive world building (though they can be an added bonus) but about doing it right. If you add fantasy elements in your story, then make use of it and be careful not to make it a detriment to your story.

I mean, you might already read these stories where they put this skill and this magic and later not mention it again or have no effect whatsoever to the story. There are also those that creates plot holes. But worst are the deus-ex-machinas. Because MAGIC. GAH!

The steak analogy doesn't really work well.

Since it is about building the world a more appropriate analogy would be building something say a house.

In my case. It is more like you are building a house then you add battlements around it and then some giant stain glass windows in one of the wall and some stone turrets on the roof because you like them. They have no point there and it actually make the house unlivable but it is there because you liked them.

But for Alice it is more like building a house then adding some medieval flair to it like medieval iron door hinges and small stain glass windows and some old fashioned lighting and colors. At least, that is what I think, with the latest discussion we have. I don't think this is a bad thing as long as you use the medieval elements to improve the house and make it work with the house. And not make it a death hazard.

But the initial comments sound like the previous one where she add things because she just like them with no care how it affects the structure. Later in the discussion it seems she meant that she don't actually want to make a medieval castle but just want a small house with medieval appeal. I actually have nothing against this, after all, you are just using elements from the other structure to enhance your house. This is proper building actually but I was not able to get it from her initial comments.

But yeah. I think we are just talking of two entirely different things.

The thing for me is that I think many of your issues can be broadly generalized to almost any genre.

Plot holes, unrealistic plot, inconsistencies, contradictions... etc... they plague every genre, and it's not limited to fantasy.

For instance, consider sci-fi with severely flawed science, historical fiction that is ridiculous, and then even modern-day fiction that is grounded in sheer errors on behalf of how the author simplistically views the world. Consider almost any hollywood blockbuster movie like James Bond, National Treasure... everything is riddled with glaring errors and misportrayals so long as you know enough about the real subject.

I kind of scratch my head when you seem to implicate "fantasy" for these issues implying that it is somehow better in other genres.

I don't necessarily think that's the case.

For most authors, you're much safer writing with a fantasy setting than attempting to write about a modern-day story located in St. Petersburg when you (the author) have personally never visited the country... and could be glaringly wrong in case your readers are more enlightened than you are.

 

[Deleted member 266]

How?

A reasonable question, I was watching the thread seeing both sides of the coin, and while I like to build some parts of the world of my story, I only do so as far as it is necessary, I am curious as to how important other people see it.

However, to go from "need to pay due attention to world-building" and leap to

If you write a fantasy story, then put effort to it.

the dangerous meaning implied here is that if you are a writer, and your story is not too concerned about how well the world worked you are in some way not making an effort.
If this idea is taken any further it would be implying that... for example... a romance set in a fantasy world, the author did not make an effort because, if you think about it, the magic would have ruined the global economy thus the world is built poorly.

Which I think is leap of assumption on the effort of the author. Since in this scenario, "fantasy" is only a superficial quality and the story's focus lies elsewhere.

It's fair enough, you are sharing your thoughts on the subject matter. But please kindly restrain from making assumptions about another author's effort, simply because they work in a different paradigm than what you believe to be right.

What is with people just barging in with almost nothing to say but retarded one liners.

I highlight what you said, and hoped you would explain it, and if you don't understand why I highlighted it, query it. I did not explain in the getgo since I would have assumed you did not know what you were saying.

Someone says something and someone else say something, I was under the impression that is how conversations and discussions happened in a civilized society.

However, calling something "retarded one liners" because you don't understand why something was said, feels unnecessary.

But I do realise my mistake now, that you are only interested in conversing at your own pace, talk to people you want to talk to. I will take that to heart and will cease to attempt to make any interaction with you in the future.

Best of luck to... whatever it is you are trying to prove here.

 

[Ral]

A reasonable question, I was watching the thread seeing both sides of the coin, and while I like to build some parts of the world of my story, I only do so as far as it is necessary, I am curious as to how important other people see it.

However, to go from "need to pay due attention to world-building" and leap to

And how is that one liner supposed to forward the discussion?

the dangerous meaning implied here is that if you are a writer, and your story is not too concerned about how well the world worked you are in some way not making an effort.
If this idea is taken any further it would be implying that... for example... a romance set in a fantasy world, the author did not make an effort because, if you think about it, the magic would have ruined the global economy thus the world is built poorly.

Which I think is leap of assumption on the effort of the author. Since in this scenario, "fantasy" is only a superficial quality and the story's focus lies elsewhere.

It's fair enough, you are sharing your thoughts on the subject matter. But please kindly restrain from making assumptions about another author's effort, simply because they work in a different paradigm than what you believe to be right.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. How is not being concerned about how your world works not the same as not making an effort to world building?

I also noticed the moving-the-goalpost you did when you said "author's effort" instead of "world building" which is what we are talking about. You are trying to make an easy exit by that simple clause because now if I deny this it would seem that I'm a bad person for not appreciating "author's effort." But are we really talking about "author's effort" here? Of course not! I never said that the author didn't put effort when writing the story, what I said was the author should put effort into world building when adding fantasy elements into their story. See the difference?

You just take what I said and put it out of context. That was said in context of world building not "author's effort" as you are hawking about. If you want me to make it clearer because god you can't seem to get the context even if there where three sentences before it that provides the context.

If you write a fantasy story, then put effort to the world building.

And I didn't assume this. Alice herself confirmed that she doesn't bother with it. You can go back and read what she said if you want.

I highlight what you said, and hoped you would explain it, and if you don't understand why I highlighted it, query it. I did not explain in the getgo since I would have assumed you did not know what you were saying.

Someone says something and someone else say something, I was under the impression that is how conversations and discussions happened in a civilized society.

However, calling something "retarded one liners" because you don't understand why something was said, feels unnecessary.

But I do realise my mistake now, that you are only interested in conversing at your own pace, talk to people you want to talk to. I will take that to heart and will cease to attempt to make any interaction with you in the future.

Best of luck to... whatever it is you are trying to prove here.

Come on. Not understanding why something was said? Don't you mean YOU don't understand what we are discussing about? I mean you are suddenly talking about "author's effort" when that was not what the discussion was and never been. Isn't "you don't understand why something was said" describe you exactly?

And thank you. Now that you explained why you said it, you just confirmed how stupid that was. Thanks for the confirmation.

 

[BenJepheneT]

that was a big jump from civil discussion to the backstabbing of julius ceasar, but instead of friends he jumt stabbed himself