Is absolute zero the thermal end state of the universe?

[NotaNuffian]

Was having a mental death battle of an extreme ice user (definitely Esdeath) and an extreme fire user (every CN sun/ nuclear fusion wielding MC) and I was stuck having the idea that Absolute Zero (0 kelvin) triumphs all, no matter how much heat/ radiation is thrown by the fire user.

https://www.quora.com/When-will-the-universe-reach-absolute-zero-or-get-as-close-as-is-possible-to-it

Even At Its End, The Universe Will Never Reach Absolute Zero

Once only dark energy remains, empty space still won't be completely empty.

www.forbes.com

So far, two sites show that an absolute zero universe is a possibilty, with Forbes' article just throw out a hypothetical energy and say that the universe will always emit energy, hence no absolute zero universe.

Any ideas to support or against the universe from reaching absolute zero?

 

[Deleted member 58005]

Let's think about this way. Is the Ice user really so strong that they can create Absolute Zero, even without interference from the Fire user? If so, that could possibly put them as one of the strongest fictional characters ever.

iirc, nothing can happen in Absolute Zero since everything is basically frozen.

 

[NotaNuffian]

Let's think about this way. Is the Ice user really so strong that they can create Absolute Zero, even without interference from the Fire user? If so, that could possibly put them as one of the strongest fictional characters ever.

iirc, nothing can happen in Absolute Zero since everything is basically frozen.

Iirc I recall Esdeath did an Absolute Zero that freezes time and yes, she za warudo and killed the battlemaid puppet.

 

[Zirrboy]

Understand that this is an extrapolation of small scale behavior under the assumption that physics laws remain as is.

But in that case I would say no. Since there is energy in the form of heat now, it would have to "go" somewhere if you want to cool everything down.
So as far as I see it you would have to have some state of energy that has even less relative potential than an uniform (nonzero, since there are gradients now) temperature.

 

[ThrillingHuman]

I am not a physicist, but even I know better than to trust a forbes article. Also, all these physics things get more and more theoretical and, hence, probably not studied and understood enough/outright wrong.

As for your story, come up with some super heat that destroys absolute zero. Or don't try to base it on physics.

 

[NotaNuffian]

Understand that this is an extrapolation of small scale behavior under the assumption that physics laws remain as is.

But in that case I would say no. Since there is energy in the form of heat now, it would have to "go" somewhere if you want to cool everything down.
So as far as I see it you would have to have some state of energy that has even less relative potential than an uniform (nonzero, since there are gradients now) temperature.

You might need to speak retard because I need some sharpening.

Since everything is in the scale known as "mahou" (weaboo mode engaged), doesn't this just means that heat is yeeted to the shadow realm alongside Jimbo ?

 

[Closeranemone48]

Well you can’t destroy energy so no, but you can make it so spread out that everything dies. Plus if you have magic you can make it so the magic creates a counter energy to the kinetic energy of atoms, essentially destroying both forces creating a extremely small period of time were a single atom has zero energy, before it gains some, but remember the laws of thermodynamics. you can’t create or destroy energy, but you can convert it, like turning it into mana ig.

 

[NotaNuffian]

I am not a physicist, but even I know better than to trust a forbes article. Also, all these physics things get more and more theoretical and, hence, probably not studied and understood enough/outright wrong.

As for your story, come up with some super heat that destroys absolute zero. Or don't try to base it on physics.

Yeah... about that, from my school days, I was taught that Absolute Zero is... absolute and while I get that localized cold spot can be negated by another potential hot spot, doesn't that mean that AZ is not AZ so long as it can be nudged to non-zero kelvin?

As for Forbes', I picked it right after Quora, not much research afaik.

 

[LilRora]

Yeah... about that, from my school days, I was taught that Absolute Zero is... absolute and while I get that localized cold spot can be negated by another potential hot spot, doesn't that mean that AZ is not AZ so long as it can be nudged to non-zero kelvin?

Yup, I think so. Absolute zero is basically a state where a particle doesn't move chaotically (technically can move in a constant direction). If you hit it with another particle, it will receive some energy from it, hence cease to have 0K.

Skipping all the technical details, I think absolute zero refers only to matter, not to energy and heat, and it's debatable if universe will ever reach absolute zero. If we assume that all particles will be stretched far enough from each other that only energy will remain, you can get absolute zero, because there are no particles to measure temperature of... but then it's not 0K, but lack of any temperature.

Though in the void particles continually materialize and annihilate each other. I'd say they must have some temperature. If you ask me, universe will never reach absolute zero.

In case of absolute zero user vs fire user, it's just lower temperature. Some novels (chinese in particular) present a sorta absolute zero that behaves differently than ice or anything, but it's bullshit in my opinion. Speaking in purely physical terms, no magic or anything, 0K can only be maintained in a completely isolated enironment, and the temperature will very quickly rise otherwise.

 

[GDLiZy]

You can't reach absolute zero as the work required to do so thermodynamically is infinite. Moreover, due to quantum mechanics, specifically Heisenberg's principle of uncertainty, you cannot know precisely the quantum state's energy (or velocity), hence its temperature. There's also zero-point energy, the lowest energy possible for a given quantum state. You cannot remove this threshold energy.

Scientists have come very close to absolute zero though. You can look up Bose-Einstein condensate.

 

[LostLibrarian]

I think the most important part to realize is that "absolute Zero" or "0 K" isn't really an expression of temperature. Reaching that isn't as easy "cooling enough" or "the right movement". Instead, it's defined with the help of entropy. And all closed physical systems will move along entropy. The logical end of such a movement is the "cold death of the universe" in which the entire systems get's "infinitely close" to Zero, but will never reach it.

The basis for that isn't really particles or temperatures or stuff like that but quantum physics. We are talking about a point where matter itself has ceased to exist. Which will get even worse if you think about the fact, that "empty space without anything in it" has energy. "Nothing" has "something". That's the level you'll reach. Your everyday logic died an eternity before that :D

Based on these fundamental ideas, "absolute Zero" won't be able to reach without the "actual death of the entire universe" based on stuff we can't even fathom. At this point, astrophysics doesn't even know whether the numbers we use in math are even able to answer the questions we don't know we should ask. We just try to get as close to the truth as possible. In fact, we aren't even sure whether the universe in itself is a closed system or not.

To make it a bit more "retard" - imagine you are trying to write an english novel with Kanji. But you don't know their meaning. And you don't even know whether there is an symbol that has the meaning you need. That's more or less the level we are at right now. We have some rough fundamental understanding but it's also clear we haven't found the truth. Stuff like "temperature" or "mass" are only images to help us understand the world better, because they work in the confines of our normal life.





If we look at a magical fight between two users with the same strength level and try to use "logic" on it, in general the heat user would win. Simply because their battlefield wouldn't be a closed system and any way to reach absolute zero can just be countered in the same way. You would need to break your magic system to enable a "cold win".

 

[Echimera]

Temperature is a measure for the average kinetic energy (energy of movement, if you will) of the particles, so E = 0.5*m*v^2, with m being the mass of a particle and v its velocity, averaged over all particles.
0K, or absolute zero, if you will, means that the particles have no kinetic energy. This means they are not moving. At all. In no direction.


It usually gets exaggerated in stories with ice users as an insanely cold state that can't be broken by fire or fire users, but it would actually be the other way round. Any and all energy that hits the particles would cause them to move and at that point, they'd no longer be in absolute zero. Sure, it'll take a lot of energy to get stuff back to proper temperatures, but not that much more than when you start from 0.001K or even 0.000001K. In reality, absolute zero is an extremely fragile state.


Then again, ice users are extremely unrealistic, even more so than many other powers. Everybody else usually expends energy to get an effect, at least. But Ice users actually take energy away from the stuff they cool down, so where does that energy go? Do they absorb it? Do they dump it three miles down the road? Do they turn the energy into ice? Do they break physics by literally destroying energy?

Time has nothing to do with temperature (if anything, one could argue that time moves faster for stuff at absolute zero), at that point an ice user is 'freezing' a dimension of the universe, wtf does that even mean? Then again, once any power moves to the conceptual level it just gets weird(er).


In regards to the end state of the universe, I'm not sure what the currently most likely model is, but absolute zero as the end state would require every particle everywhere to stop moving, which would probably require all mass to fall into black holes (or end up perfectly balanced between two black holes when they stop moving), which would take extremely long, probably way longer than the universe will take to be absolutely inhospitable to all life (you'd have to wait out the death of every single sun and the decay of every single radioactive atom, but stuff would still move by then).
But even ignoring the fact that I at least wouldn't qualify a black hole as absolute zero with any confidence, we'd still have the black holes drifting away from each other, so there'd still be that movement. Though at that point, we might want to differentiate between actual movement and relative movement due to the expansion of the universe.

 

[LostLibrarian]

In reality, absolute zero is an extremely fragile state.

Interestingly enough - if you can actually reach absolute zero, the state would be rather stable because the interaction with other states would be rather unlikely. It's getting there that is - realistically - impossible.

which would probably require all mass to fall into black holes (or end up perfectly balanced between two black holes when they stop moving)

Both mass and black holes are finite states.
The point where all suns are dead and the entropy has done its part is still only the beginning of the universe's death.
Based on the model, that's somewhere roughly around 10^25 years from now on.

The "cold death" would be still behind 10^(90-100) years. And that's the point where we are "slowly approaching" absolute zero and our normal understanding can't reach anymore. So "all mass in the black holes or just stationary" isn't really more than a single blink of an eye in the universe's death. At the beginning...

 

[ConansWitchBaby]

Weeaboo-ness has been mentioned so, just go the equal extremes touching route that leads to explosion when crossed.