Heroism and its defensiveness stance.

[NotaNuffian]

It always irritates me to see how JP heroes are playing the "let karma be my sugar mommy" trope. It is even more annoying that most MCs are often defensive, ie only attack AFTER attacked, such as the case of those revenge porns like Redo Healer and the latest weirdshit I read in NU (Doitsu Gun Shoukan! ~Yuusha-tachi ni Subete o Ubawareta Dragon Shoukanshi, Moto Saikyou wa Fukushuu o Chikau~) or like Magi's Grandson or even just the standard Power Rangers BS. Like, wouldn't it be better if you just stab the motherfucker when he first landed right in front of you so as to not drag the plot out?

Granted, we live in the society and those who throws the first punch is always the aggressor or at the very least, the source of the disturbance. So in the literature works, the heroes need a good reason to use their nukes powered by friendship and said reason must be "the bad guys started it!" And "started it" = "throwing the first punch". If this is the first time they met or have no previous animosity until prior moment, I can live with that. But if they have been tangoing from the first few chapters all the way to chapter 50 and the heroes still require to get hit before hitting back, it is me facedesking.

Yes, in society you are supposed to be passive and defensive when it comes to law and order and not be an Aggressive Self-absorbed Scumbag as you rapid fistcuffs the suspect who had not yet commited anything. Police don't do shoot before asking, they ask first before unloading their magazines. Also, once you have a previous conviction, the boys in blue will (or may) just skip the talks and double tap.

So in heroism and by extension Orthodox Sects, there are bureaucracy, strict guidelines to follow like having the evidence before the execution. It is no good to just hang the would be murderer UNTIL he commits the crime.

Which makes me wanting to scratch my head alot as the MCs in works, especially in revenge porns, don't have the proper thinking about ass covering. At least in Kenja no Mago and most typical CN works, the MCs git gud and grind until their power levels are high enough to not get a new underground train tunnel made from their anal sphincter. I think Lith in Supreme Magus has a good sense of paranoia that can be used on these MCs and helps them not to get an unwanted prostate exam when they get thrown out of party/ banished from kingdom/ have their entire family burned like heretics.

Which is why I want to explore something further, like the MC betraying their betrayers first/ stabs first.

Picture this, some KR superpowerful MC getting betrayed by his friend/s and they are gloating at him, so he pulls a cure all from their stupid poison, activates the death nanobots in their bodies and proceeds to murderfuck every single one of them. Is this villainous? Yes. Kinda like the FFF Trash Hero. To hell, I even allow the MC to get downed for a moment so that he has a legit reason to hit back.

Picture a second time, this time with the MC knowing that the villain's cohort decided to camp inside of the town MC governs and instead of waiting like a bumblefuck or storming a troop to alert the gagglefucks, MC send a high level assassin to mop them up. It is that simple. I am even pointing out that MC and villain have bad bloods just to justify MC. To hell, even if they don't have qualms with one another, if the villain is renowned for his viciousness, I will either kindly but firmly ask the cohort to leave or send them home in a plastic bag.

I am more inclined in hit first though, what is your thought then?

 

[RepresentingWrath]

So, you want more anti-heroes? Or do you want to talk about perspective making someone either a villain or a hero?

 

[NotaNuffian]

So, you want more anti-heroes? Or do you want to talk about perspective making someone either a villain or a hero?

To be honest, I can no longer differentiate CN or even some KR MCs as anti-heroes or villains. My guideline has become "if they did not involve an innocent, they are still a hero"

I don't want more anti-heroes, because they become a joke. By making a grumpy asshole who performs bad for the sake of good is a surefire way of making me belittle the character. You can give me "knight in sour armor" talk or even justify his behaviour with tragedy, it to me is baked dog shit.

So no, I don't want an anti-hero, I want a more proactive hero. He can have rules, he can be law abiding but he must be ready to kick teeth in even when circumstances force him to be idle.

As for perspective, that sounds like a fun topic until the whole "one kingdom's hero is another's devil" shit. Perspective to me has lost its meaning because it is biased. Humans are biased, where we sit is who we shall think for, we have tribalism and will not hesitate to label good and bad for our own benefits.

And if you talk about objective good like not murdering... it barely works in literature and mostly real life because people don't change. Don't change much if you want to be kind and most of the times it is changed for the worst.

 

[CarburetorThompson]

They want a rock solid self defense case for when they get sued

 

[NotaNuffian]

They want a rock solid self defense case for when they get sued

It will be problematic of course.

I have no knowledge on law but I can be assured that the one who throws the first punch will be the one drilled to death.

Just to check, excessive violence in self defense aside, can the villains be persecuted for having only the intent of commiting a crime whilst not yet commiting it? As I recall, the answer is no.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

To be honest, I can no longer differentiate CN or even some KR MCs as anti-heroes or villains. My guideline has become "if they did not involve an innocent, they are still a hero"

I don't want more anti-heroes, because they become a joke. By making a grumpy asshole who performs bad for the sake of good is a surefire way of making me belittle the character. You can give me "knight in sour armor" talk or even justify his behaviour with tragedy, it to me is baked dog shit.

So no, I don't want an anti-hero, I want a more proactive hero.

A proactive hero is no longer a hero. Heroes are retroactive(don't know if this is the right term) because they are bound by some shit. It's either law, their creed, or something else. They can't act simply because they think that someone is a baddie. If they don't care about laws, they don't have their creed, and generally act like a vigilante, they stop being a hero and become an antihero.

 

[NotaNuffian]

A proactive hero is no longer a hero. Heroes are retroactive(don't know if this is the right term) because they are bound by some shit. It's either law, their creed, or something else. They can't act simply because they think that someone is a baddie. If they don't care about laws, they don't have their creed, and generally act like a vigilante, they stop being a hero and become an antihero.

So either the MC is a vigilante or he has to play the game of "getting his shit wrecked before he can do anything" game.

Also the word is "reactive" as in react AFTER. Retroactive means (especially of legislation) taking effect from a date in the past.

 

[Ilikewaterkusa]

It always irritates me to see how JP heroes are playing the "let karma be my sugar mommy" trope. It is even more annoying that most MCs are often defensive, ie only attack AFTER attacked, such as the case of those revenge porns like Redo Healer and the latest weirdshit I read in NU (Doitsu Gun Shoukan! ~Yuusha-tachi ni Subete o Ubawareta Dragon Shoukanshi, Moto Saikyou wa Fukushuu o Chikau~) or like Magi's Grandson or even just the standard Power Rangers BS. Like, wouldn't it be better if you just stab the motherfucker when he first landed right in front of you so as to not drag the plot out?

Granted, we live in the society and those who throws the first punch is always the aggressor or at the very least, the source of the disturbance. So in the literature works, the heroes need a good reason to use their nukes powered by friendship and said reason must be "the bad guys started it!" And "started it" = "throwing the first punch". If this is the first time they met or have no previous animosity until prior moment, I can live with that. But if they have been tangoing from the first few chapters all the way to chapter 50 and the heroes still require to get hit before hitting back, it is me facedesking.

Yes, in society you are supposed to be passive and defensive when it comes to law and order and not be an Aggressive Self-absorbed Scumbag as you rapid fistcuffs the suspect who had not yet commited anything. Police don't do shoot before asking, they ask first before unloading their magazines. Also, once you have a previous conviction, the boys in blue will (or may) just skip the talks and double tap.

So in heroism and by extension Orthodox Sects, there are bureaucracy, strict guidelines to follow like having the evidence before the execution. It is no good to just hang the would be murderer UNTIL he commits the crime.

Which makes me wanting to scratch my head alot as the MCs in works, especially in revenge porns, don't have the proper thinking about ass covering. At least in Kenja no Mago and most typical CN works, the MCs git gud and grind until their power levels are high enough to not get a new underground train tunnel made from their anal sphincter. I think Lith in Supreme Magus has a good sense of paranoia that can be used on these MCs and helps them not to get an unwanted prostate exam when they get thrown out of party/ banished from kingdom/ have their entire family burned like heretics.

Which is why I want to explore something further, like the MC betraying their betrayers first/ stabs first.

Picture this, some KR superpowerful MC getting betrayed by his friend/s and they are gloating at him, so he pulls a cure all from their stupid poison, activates the death nanobots in their bodies and proceeds to murderfuck every single one of them. Is this villainous? Yes. Kinda like the FFF Trash Hero. To hell, I even allow the MC to get downed for a moment so that he has a legit reason to hit back.

Picture a second time, this time with the MC knowing that the villain's cohort decided to camp inside of the town MC governs and instead of waiting like a bumblefuck or storming a troop to alert the gagglefucks, MC send a high level assassin to mop them up. It is that simple. I am even pointing out that MC and villain have bad bloods just to justify MC. To hell, even if they don't have qualms with one another, if the villain is renowned for his viciousness, I will either kindly but firmly ask the cohort to leave or send them home in a plastic bag.

I am more inclined in hit first though, what is your thought then?

Virgin defense hero vs Chad terrorist hero

 

[RepresentingWrath]

So either the MC is a vigilante or he has to play the game of "getting his shit wrecked before he can do anything" game.

Also the word is "reactive" as in react AFTER. Retroactive means (especially of legislation) taking effect from a date in the past.

If we go by the book without subverting the tropes, yes.

 

[Deleted member 266]

retroactive

Reactionary?

It might be linked to the ideas of, "they can be redeemed" " innocent untill proven gulty" and other ideology that is associated with "good" .

Edit: no, actually reactionary means something else

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Reactionary

It might be linked to the ideas of, "they can be redeemed" " innocent untill proven gulty" and other ideology that is associated with "good" .

Yep, this is probably, what I meant.

 

[owotrucked]

Yeah I like heroes who mercy-kill the younglings so they never get the opportunity to be tainted by sin and never suffer from the painful reality.

 

[greyblob]

what I got about the japenese from their mangas is that they are anti-conflict. I can't see a japanese MC walk up to the counter because he got the wrong order

 

[RepresentingWrath]

what I got about the japenese from their mangas is that they are anti-conflict. I can't see a japanese MC walk up to the counter because he got the wrong order

What if the Japanese MC had an absurdly op ability, let's say, healing. Would such an MC go to the counter?

 

[greyblob]

What if the Japanese MC had an absurdly op ability, let's say, healing. Would such an MC go to the counter?

no he'd just eat what he got, use his powers to somehow change his order himself, or selflessly donate it to someone and go without eating

 

[Irl_Rat]

If I remember correctly, Japan has some real whack self defense laws. Part of the reason why people molested on trains are so reluctant to stand up for themselves. Probably a reflection of the culture as well so being the aggressor and possibly pre-emptive defense is likely considered morally, or at least legally, wrong.

 

[Laius]

I wonder if japanese hero feels realistic to a japanese ? Because to me they feels irritating.

One of the trope that i hate is the female vilain which WILL fall for the MC and the hero just goes "plenty of people already died because of you but we're not gonna add more to those numbers so you're forgiven, also you have boobs."

 

[RepresentingWrath]

You all gang up on Japanese heroes, but Batman was just as stupid before they started adding more backstory to him. Spider-Man is just as stupid as any Japanese hero. Simply because his uncle said some shit, he lets the villains wreak chaos and kill innocent citizens every time instead of nipping the problem. Before they were made more complex by authors, most if not every classical hero were like that.

 

[Irl_Rat]

I wonder if japanese hero feels realistic to a japanese ? Because to me they feels irritating.

Based on what I've heard and observed, the truth isn't that far off. Sure not every Japanese person is a doormat, but that type of personality quite prevalent among Japanese teenagers and younger adults, especially the ones that read light novels. Conformist society tends to do that to people.

Though it should be considered that my friends might be biased since a lot of them are considered "delinquents" when they go to Japan to visit.

 

[NobleTalon]

It always irritates me to see how JP heroes are playing the "let karma be my sugar mommy" trope. It is even more annoying that most MCs are often defensive, ie only attack AFTER attacked, such as the case of those revenge porns like Redo Healer and the latest weirdshit I read in NU (Doitsu Gun Shoukan! ~Yuusha-tachi ni Subete o Ubawareta Dragon Shoukanshi, Moto Saikyou wa Fukushuu o Chikau~) or like Magi's Grandson or even just the standard Power Rangers BS. Like, wouldn't it be better if you just stab the motherfucker when he first landed right in front of you so as to not drag the plot out?

Granted, we live in the society and those who throws the first punch is always the aggressor or at the very least, the source of the disturbance. So in the literature works, the heroes need a good reason to use their nukes powered by friendship and said reason must be "the bad guys started it!" And "started it" = "throwing the first punch". If this is the first time they met or have no previous animosity until prior moment, I can live with that. But if they have been tangoing from the first few chapters all the way to chapter 50 and the heroes still require to get hit before hitting back, it is me facedesking.

Yes, in society you are supposed to be passive and defensive when it comes to law and order and not be an Aggressive Self-absorbed Scumbag as you rapid fistcuffs the suspect who had not yet commited anything. Police don't do shoot before asking, they ask first before unloading their magazines. Also, once you have a previous conviction, the boys in blue will (or may) just skip the talks and double tap.

So in heroism and by extension Orthodox Sects, there are bureaucracy, strict guidelines to follow like having the evidence before the execution. It is no good to just hang the would be murderer UNTIL he commits the crime.

Which makes me wanting to scratch my head alot as the MCs in works, especially in revenge porns, don't have the proper thinking about ass covering. At least in Kenja no Mago and most typical CN works, the MCs git gud and grind until their power levels are high enough to not get a new underground train tunnel made from their anal sphincter. I think Lith in Supreme Magus has a good sense of paranoia that can be used on these MCs and helps them not to get an unwanted prostate exam when they get thrown out of party/ banished from kingdom/ have their entire family burned like heretics.

Which is why I want to explore something further, like the MC betraying their betrayers first/ stabs first.

Picture this, some KR superpowerful MC getting betrayed by his friend/s and they are gloating at him, so he pulls a cure all from their stupid poison, activates the death nanobots in their bodies and proceeds to murderfuck every single one of them. Is this villainous? Yes. Kinda like the FFF Trash Hero. To hell, I even allow the MC to get downed for a moment so that he has a legit reason to hit back.

Picture a second time, this time with the MC knowing that the villain's cohort decided to camp inside of the town MC governs and instead of waiting like a bumblefuck or storming a troop to alert the gagglefucks, MC send a high level assassin to mop them up. It is that simple. I am even pointing out that MC and villain have bad bloods just to justify MC. To hell, even if they don't have qualms with one another, if the villain is renowned for his viciousness, I will either kindly but firmly ask the cohort to leave or send them home in a plastic bag.

I am more inclined in hit first though, what is your thought then?

This is one of the reasons I stopped Japanese novels and I started to enjoy Korean novels instead. (I still don't like Chinese ones, or should I say I don't like Xianxia/wuxia fantasy and the Chinese names for their characters)

The Japanese authors' mindset is mainstream, if they want to sell their novels they have to write what their readers want to see. And unfortunately, most of their readers are Japanese teenagers or/and young adults.

With the cultural difference, you might not like the same things they do, and you should not expect the same events and reactions from the MC as they do.

Unless you are a fully converted weeb, and you crave for the "righteous hero saving the world from the demon lord with his harem of big boobies under-aged waifus", you might not find a good and serious mc in most of the Japanese fantasy novels, and you shouldn't expect one as this isn't their "meta" for a good isekai/fantasy recipe.

Of course, there are exceptions, but they are few and most of them aim for the same public and so they follow the same rules.

Korean novels are generally more mature and the story advances slower with more details, while Chinese novels are the opposite, when they aren't trash, they are more 'raw' and the story advance really fast. I've seen Chinese authors make timeskips of decades lmao. In their cultivation universe, where their MC seek immortality, the speed of the story is often very fast and they do not care at all about the years.

So in the end, you might find what you're looking for in either of those or in Western webnovels.

I've read a lot of good novels with ruthless mc and none of them were Japanese, they were either Korean, Chinese or Western.

Even the novel I'm actually writing is going against those mainstream rules and cliche you find in most of those Japanese fantasy stories.