Ask me about fantasy lore history.

NotaNuffian

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Ok, so, I'm not really answering D&D gameplay questions. Those are a complete mess, and it's made all the murkier by the edition issues. If you want my opinion on the subject, D&D lore has just become a complete unapproachable and impenetrable mess ever since Wizards of the Coast got ahold of it. They keep coming out with new editions, and there are SO many differences between 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition that they may as well be completely different games. I simply do not have time to keep up with the mess that Wizards has made of the game.

TSR (the original creators of D&D, and the makers of 1st and 2nd edition) at least had some consistency between the different editions as though they were different iterations of the same game. They also tried to pay some attention to the original lore these creatures were based off of. (Although I have to say I am not a fan of what they did with Bahamut and Tiamat. Although, I suppose we wouldn't have Final Fantasy Bahamut without D&D Bahamut.)


For original lore, there's no such thing as Orcs. Orc is just a linguistically different term to refer to Ogres. So, Orc and Ogre are the same creature.

It was Tolkein who created the distinction between Orcs and Ogres that we know of today. He essentially created the Orc race, and gave it the back-story of Orcs being corrupted and magically changed Elves.

TSR, when they were making Dungeons and Dragons, later got ahold of Tolkein's orcs and gave them a new origin, making them into their own completely independent fantasy race with no off-shoot elf origin. (In a way though, Tolkein's Orcs also became something of an inspiration for TSR's interpretation on Dark Elves.)


Trolls, historically, are very different creatures from the version we got in D&D. They do not have a healing factor. However, something the historical trolls DO have that was not in D&D is that they turn to stone in the sunlight. That's only some interpretations on trolls though, but it was a fairly popular interpretation.

For the most part, Trolls were just these strange monstrous creatures that would inhibit protagonists in various folk-tales in many English-origin tales. Generally, they would be impossibly strong and defeating them in a contest of strength would be infeasible for the protagonist. So, they would have to somehow use their wit in order to defeat a troll.

Historical trolls are on the dull-witted side, however, they were a LOT smarter than the D&D version. I would put them on par with a 70 IQ human.

EDIT: (Another thing to note about Trolls is that they historically are not portrayed as mindlessly violent, and often actually like to engage in conversation. They usually act like some form of street-thug, shaking people down for money or some other various things using their overpowering strength to get what they want. Ultimately though, it is their peculiar combination of dull-wit and liking conversation that tends to get them in trouble.)

EDIT: (Ultimately, if you go to historical lore, there is zero difference between Orcs and Ogres. They are literally the same creatures by different names. Meanwhile, it is hard to differentiate between Trolls and Ogres as there are few distinctions there as well. For the most part, it looks like Trolls are just more comically portrayed versions of Ogres. Their features and abilities seem largely identical, with the only real difference being the sorts of stories they appear in.)


In regards to Aboleths, Illithids, and Succubie, that's a subject I am going to have to research as to whether or not there is any pre-D&D lore I can give you. I mean, I know for a fact the Succubus existed before D&D, but I don't know much about their lore beyond the demonic origin, and the sex-to-death thing. I wouldn't count on there being a lot of specifics though. Anything from before Bahm Stoker's Dracula tends to be shy on specifics so far as powers and abilities go.
So the issue with orcs, orges (this is a typo... fuck I am leaving it in), OGRES and trolls is like the issue of early elves and dwarves, creatures of the forest who were one in the same group as fae and then later interpretation by famous writers end up cleaving them into different races.

Ps. Please take your time on Aboleths and Illithids though, these slimy fucks seem to be taken from HP lovecraft and I genuinely hate the lovecraftian OP creatures. Hard to write them in as monsters when those famous in the group are reality gods.
Succubus are dream demons or demons of dreams. They are not vampires and don't have powers like vampires. Most similarities end up with the fact that both succubus and female vampires are depicted as beauties, and both of them suck. :blob_wink:
So they are mostly lacking in the physical forms like ghosts and stuff. I am looking mostly on those that have the capability to take up a manifestation into the physical plane (DnD style) and whether or not their powers align to those of demon-possessed. Ie levitation, telekinesis in lobbing people and furnitures in the room.
 
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I'm just curious, how do you design a Kingdom if it has to be located inside someone's balls?

On a more serious note, I want to see more example of a fantasy world similar to Magicant in Earthbound series.
 

NotaNuffian

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I'm just curious, how do you design a Kingdom if it has to be located inside someone's balls?
Simple, that someone needs to be a titan of sorts.

If Uranus can get castrated and birth Chronos and his bros, then it is possible for testicular terrains for territorial tribute.

In Marvel's case Knowhere is an Eternal (?)'s decapitated head.
 
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Simple, that someone needs to be a titan of sorts.

If Uranus can get castrated and birth Chronos and his bros, then it is possible for testicular terrains for territorial tribute.

In Marvel's case Knowhere is an Eternal (?)'s decapitated head.

it made me think: what if Earth was actually someone's balls who got roasted by the Sun?

in that case the answer might be your typical underground kingdom like dwarf fortress since they're practically 'inside' the Earth, which might be someone's balls.
 
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One word: OW.

For the lost of a ball and for said ball getting toasted.
can be intentional. if it's a god's balls they can probably just grow them back.

it might make a lot sense since balls had a lot of fertility which could nourish life.
 

Jemini

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On a more serious note, I want to see more example of a fantasy world similar to Magicant in Earthbound series.

I will be honest, I never actually got around to finishing Earthbound.

That said, I think it is highly possible that you might have just named off the original lore behind a growing niche portrayal of these traversable worlds inside of people's minds.

There is actually a series right here on Scribble Hub utilizing this concept, although I'm pretty sure it's not what you are looking for. I will link it anyway.

 

Leyligne

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Here’s one we all know yet has next to no history that I can find.

Slimes.

It’s odd, earliest references are only 100 years or so old. Probably because before cellular theory the idea of slimes was too foreign to become widespread? The modern idea of slimes we all know was only popularized with the coming of Dragon Quest. There were a few others before that, but the bouncing balls of goo we all love started less than fifty years ago.

Any insights into mythical relations of our gooey friends?
 

Jemini

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Here’s one we all know yet has next to no history that I can find.

Slimes.

It’s odd, earliest references are only 100 years or so old. Probably because before cellular theory the idea of slimes was too foreign to become widespread? The modern idea of slimes we all know was only popularized with the coming of Dragon Quest. There were a few others before that, but the bouncing balls of goo we all love started less than fifty years ago.

Any insights into mythical relations of our gooey friends?

You are rather correct that slimes are a fairly recent development. There's really little about them historically.

That said, there is actually a lot more to the story that I know just off the top of my head in terms of how slimes have developed differently between Eastern and Western RPGs.

That said, while the Eastern development stemming from Dragon Quest is rather clean-cut, I think there might be a little deeper I can dig back into the Western portrayal of slimes to before D&D. It might shed some light into how the Western portrayal of slimes are so much more powerful and horrific compared to the Eastern version.

(That's normally something I look for. If it's a cute and fairly non-threatening monster, it's probably modern. If it's absolutely horrific, or at least requires some kind of special care when figuring out what to do with it, then there's a chance that there's more to the story going back into older lore.)

So, for now, I will hold on the Eastern slimes while I try to dig into the Western slimes a little bit to see if there's any interesting pre-D&D tid-bits I can find.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, thought so! I found it!

The earliest appearance of the FAR more threatening Western-themed slimes appears to be the C-rate monster movie, "The Blob," released in 1958.

In this story, there was an amorphous ball of goo that came from outer space and ate everything it touched. In the process, it would become bigger and bigger until it is larger than a building. (Note the similar origin story to the Venom Symbiote from Spider Man.)

The thing is finally defeated when it is lured onto a palate and air-lifted into the Anartic, using cold to stop it's metabolism and thus it's growth.

Around the same period of time, there started to be more and more stories, such as Venom from Spider Man, that had threatening amorphous goo-like things as the antagonistic force in the story. In all cases, these amorphous creatures were portrayed as a VERY large threat.

So, the original origin of slimes seems to have coincided with the advent of the scientific age and the space age, as these early slime-like creatures were almost always from outer space.

It was, as always, Dungeons and Dragons that radically changed the portrayal of slimes for the entire world. However, this is quite likely the first time I've gotten one where they took a sci-fi creature and turned it into a fantasy creature.

D&D oozes (as they called them) were trap-monsters. They put a great deal of thought into how these creatures feed and survive, and they are portrayed as similar in nature to some kind of low-mobility predatory plant, except that they are also amorphous. They have a low movement speed, but that is about the only weak thing about them. All D&D slimes have a reasonably high amount of health, almost always have some method of blending in with the surroundings and looking natural in their environment, and if prey happens to stumble into their trap then they have some method of immobilizing them.

D&D slimes are largely categorized into 3 categories.

Gelatinous types. These types have more physical structure, often being a large cube or sphere of some kind. They slowly ooze along the ground, eating pieces of small debris that they pull into their bodies. They are made of a fairly clear substance, so they are very difficult to see in low light. You can even be looking right at one of these slimes and the only way you will see it is either if light and visibility is good, or if it has picked up something and that "something" is suspended in the gelatinous creature.

The gelatinous type D&D slimes are the closest in nature to Eastern slimes. Only, they are a lot stronger. They are fairly easy to defeat once seen since, while they have a lot of health, they also move slowly and have few options for fighting back other than to dissolve the weapon as it passes through their body. Something that would require the person attempting to slay it to be rather stupid to allow to happen, as it would require them sticking the weapon into the creature and leaving it there for an excessive amount of time.


The next type is camouflaged types. These tend to be far more amorphous than the gelatinous types, and are also a greater threat. They tend to conform to the contours of a natural stone surface of some kind, and are usually found in natural caves, usually in moist areas. A hapless adventurer can easily mistake a camouflaged-type slime for pond-scum of some form, and may simply proceed on through while only being cautious of the possibility that they might slip and fall.

This type has adapted to only begin releasing it's acid after it's body has been disturbed. As such, unless you have very good shoes made of non-organic material, it will begin dissolving your feet around the same time you have made it 33% of the way through the area the slime covers. A point at which it is very difficult to escape before your feet have dissolved to the point where movement becomes impossible. This makes camouflaged slimes particularly nasty.


The third type is noxious type oozes. These ones can also have features of either of the above two types as well, either being non-mobile camouflaged types or more mobile gelatin-like. However, the gel-like noxious slimes usually are more opaque and easier to spot than the regular gelatin types.

Noxious slimes, when disturbed or damaged, will release some form of noxious fumes into the air which will have some form of sleep or paralysis effect. After incapacitating their pray, a noxious-type slime will envelop that prey and begin dissolving it.


It was, in fact, after D&D was already a thing that Dragon Quest came onto the scene. The makers of Dragon Quest have even cited D&D as their inspiration for the making of the game.

However, it seems the makers of Dragon Quest decided to make some slimes which somewhat resembled the gelatin-like oozes of D&D into their starting low-rank enemies. This was likely done for ease of animation, but this culturally solidified the concept of the slimes in the Eastern minds as low-rank and non-threatening enemies, quite the contrary to the pre-existing Western view on slimes.

From there, most people know the rest of the story. Western slimes have really not developed much since early D&D. Most of the carrying on of this creature has been via Eastern fiction. However, Western RPGs do still tend to favor D&D slimes over the weaker JRPG counterparts. It's only that Western RPGs have not really done much to evolve the concept and continue to go back to the source, where as Japanese Web Novels have continued to push and evolve the concept of Eastern Dragon Quest - based slimes.

I am going to call this one here, unless someone wants to show interest in me continuing into the Web Novel - based evolution of the concept.
 
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Cipiteca396

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Ps. Please take your time on Aboleths and Illithids though, these slimy fucks seem to be taken from HP lovecraft and I genuinely hate the lovecraftian OP creatures. Hard to write them in as monsters when those famous in the group are reality gods.
DnD Players put a lot of care and love into taking the tiniest scraps of Lovecraftian lore and mutilating them until they were unrecognizable component parts, then gluing them together to make 'Lovecraft Style' races, monsters, deities and myths. You'll never find a direct precursor to a single creature. The only way to see the origin is to take a step back and look at the BIG PICTURE. Ah, what a thing to see. Another Dream.
Anything about that can be categorized as "horny" monsters? Gotta expand my repertoire of degeneracy.
Are there any monsters that evolved or devolved from humans?
Also any records of monsters that were once human and are now cursed. I don't mean things like werewolves and such, more like some humans did something a god didn't like very much, and their punishment was to be turned into some monstrosity.
As stated, most of the horny monsters were metaphors, reasons to avoid certain things. There were, however, a lot of stories where bad things happened to horny people.
Lamia; turned into a baby eating monster for Adultery by Hera.
The Sirens in Homer's Odyssey were turned into bird creatures for slighting the Sorceress Circe, or possibly Athena.
Those same Sirens and the Russian Sirin sang to enchant people to their doom or happiness- sometimes both.
Medusa has the misfortune of being a recurring character, either cursed/saved by Athena, or born naturally terrifying in older works.
Arachne also was curse/saved by Athena. She challenged Athena to a sewing contest and lost. She tried to hang herself in shame, but Athena took pity on her.... Though Ovid said she won and was smited by a vindictive goddess, lol.
A lot of stars, trees, springs and flowers were transformed for slighting a god or to stop someone from dying. My favorite is probably Minthe, because it shows the darker side of 'Poor, innocent Persephone', who caught her trying to seduce Hades, lol.
Not a curse, but speaking of 'Horny'... Have you heard the tale of the Minotaur? Ah, puns.
Does Kitsune qualify I wonder? They weren't cursed, but they did tend to sleep around a lot before fleeing and being seen turning back into foxes. A metaphor for seductresses again.

I got a little carried away here... I like the world building in Monster Musume and went to see if any of the Lore was accurate, so I know a lot of horny myths.

Speaking of...
I mean, I know for a fact the Succubus existed before D&D, but I don't know much about their lore beyond the demonic origin, and the sex-to-death thing.
If you go looking for Succubi, I suggest looking into Sleep Paralysis. I don't remember my source, but my favorite story about Succubi was that a priest with sleep paralysis had a nightmare about a succubus, and codified their image for the Christians. The idea that a God fearing man was genuinely terrified that a woman might come to steal his chastity in his sleep always tickled me.

Outside that, the most probable source is the Mesopotamian Lilitu/lilu/Lilith.
 

Jemini

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Outside that, the most probable source is the Mesopotamian Lilitu/lilu/Lilith.

Yeah, I know I've seen a lot of JRPGs in which Succubus are used as enemies, Lilith is an end-game level palate-swap of the early-game Succubus enemies. So, guess the lore department among the game makers concur with this theory.

Most of the original lore I see on Lilith though has her as a child-stealing demon rather than her engaging in sexually predatory behavior. There is the Jewish apocryphal take on her lore in which she is Adam's 1st wife before Eve though, in which he rejects her for trying to be sexually dominant in the relationship. (And, once again, why am I not surprised that something in Jewish lore originated from Babylonian lore? It must be a pure thing of laziness that I've never traced Lilith back to Babylonian lore up until now.)

EDIT: Oh-hoh? Now what's this?

I just went and followed this up with some research into Babylonian origins on Lilith. There are mentions of various figures being her in Babylonian mythos, but most of the connections seemed rather spurious from what I've seen, and many of them appear to have actually been later assertions of Jewish scholars attempting to insist that things that later turned out to be other Mesopotamian deities were Lilith instead.

So, for once, it looks like there is a very real possibility something in Jewish lore is not actually from Babylonian mythology. Strange that it would happen to be from the apocrypha. Even stranger that most of the supposed connections are actually Jewish scholars attempting to force it in and ret-con out the natural Babylonian lore and replace it with Lilith.
 
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Cipiteca396

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Yeah, I know I've seen a lot of JRPGs in which Succubus are used as enemies, Lilith is an end-game level palate-swap of the early-game Succubus enemies. So, guess the lore department among the game makers concur with this theory.

Most of the original lore I see on Lilith though has her as a child-stealing demon rather than her engaging in sexually predatory behavior. There is the Jewish apocryphal take on her lore in which she is Adam's 1st wife before Eve though, in which he rejects her for trying to be sexually dominant in the relationship. (And, once again, why am I not surprised that something in Jewish lore originated from Babylonian lore? It must be a pure thing of laziness that I've never traced Lilith back to Babylonian lore up until now.)

EDIT: Oh-hoh? Now what's this?

I just went and followed this up with some research into Babylonian origins on Lilith. There are mentions of various figures being her in Babylonian mythos, but most of the connections seemed rather spurious from what I've seen, and many of them appear to have actually been later assertions of Jewish scholars attempting to insist that things that later turned out to be other Mesopotamian deities were Lilith instead.

So, for once, it looks like there is a very real possibility something in Jewish lore is not actually from Babylonian mythology. Strange that it would happen to be from the apocrypha. Even stranger that most of the supposed connections are actually Jewish scholars attempting to force it in and ret-con out the natural Babylonian lore and replace it with Lilith.
Yeah, most of the non-Jewish references to Lilitu were generic night creatures, pretty similar to Lamia. There's also a word that literally just means 'evening' that's similar, and another that means 'night bird'. As a result, it's difficult to figure out what's related to what. But as a starting point for the succubus, it's quite 'decent'.
 

Echimera

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You are rather correct that slimes are a fairly recent development. There's really little about them historically.
Funnily enough, the real world has slime molds. Which makes it all the more interesting that there are no myths about slime creatures, as these things should be pretty hard to understand without pesky things like cell theory.

Honestly, I'm glad these things are usually small, they sound like they'd make a pretty realistic variation of the simpler D&D oozes if they were bigger.
 

Leyligne

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Funnily enough, the real world has slime molds. Which makes it all the more interesting that there are no myths about slime creatures, as these things should be pretty hard to understand without pesky things like cell theory.

Honestly, I'm glad these things are usually small, they sound like they'd make a pretty realistic variation of the simpler D&D oozes if they were bigger.
And food has been slowly devoured by the fuzzy green slimes that form seemingly from the aethers since we’ve had food. Yet the earliest stuff is from around 1900. Giant single celled monsters featured in sci-fi shorts. It seems that without seeing an amoeba the idea just couldn’t catch.

Good thread here:

 

Armored99

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Historically speaking dolphins weren't seen all friendly like they are today, so how come there isn't any dolphin inspired fantasy monsters? Or is there and I don't know of them?
 

Cipiteca396

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Historically speaking dolphins weren't seen all friendly like they are today, so how come there isn't any dolphin inspired fantasy monsters? Or is there and I don't know of them?
? Dolphins are almost universally considered friends to humans. If humans lived in the ocean, they'd be man's best friend. The only exception I'm aware of is the Polynesians, cause they hunted them for food.

For 'monsters' the nereids would probably be the closest fit.

(And no, that doesn't take into account modern perception of them.)
 

RepresentingWrath

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? Dolphins are almost universally considered friends to humans. If humans lived in the ocean, they'd be man's best friend. The only exception I'm aware of is the Polynesians, cause they hunted them for food.

For 'monsters' the nereids would probably be the closest fit.

(And no, that doesn't take into account modern perception of them.)
Greek hippocampus?
 

Armored99

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? Dolphins are almost universally considered friends to humans. If humans lived in the ocean, they'd be man's best friend. The only exception I'm aware of is the Polynesians, cause they hunted them for food.

For 'monsters' the nereids would probably be the closest fit.

(And no, that doesn't take into account modern perception of them.)
Ok, I admit I was purely drawing this from the fact I seen a family crest that used a dolphin because they thought it was vicious. It was from one of shadiversity videos i think.
 

Cipiteca396

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Greek hippocampus?
Nah, they often appear in the same images. If it's drawn from a living creature it would probably be a normal sea horse that's just far too big. Or I guess a normal horse that tried to swim.
 

Jemini

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Ok, I admit I was purely drawing this from the fact I seen a family crest that used a dolphin because they thought it was vicious. It was from one of shadiversity videos i think.

Well, that's making an awful lot of assumptions. The only thing you can tell from that is that they had a dolphin on a crest. Can't really say that means they thought it was a vicious creature. Perhaps they could have seen it as some kind of guardian creature.

That said, dolphins actually ARE vicious. They just typically don't attack humans. When it comes to sea creatures though, dolphins are the wolves of the sea in every sense you can possibly imagine.
 
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