To all the LitRPG authors…

[BlackKnightX]

Do you really calculate all the exp gain from the amount of monsters the mc kills? Or do you just estimate it?

 

[Representing_Tromba]

Estimate because I don't rememberer where my notes that contain the hitpoint for each animal are.

 

[BlackKnightX]

Estimate because I don't rememberer where my notes that contain the hitpoint for each animal are.

Good target for a critical readers~ ?

 

[CupcakeNinja]

Do you really calculate all the exp gain from the amount of monsters the mc kills? Or do you just estimate it?

I made the mistake of having my novel have rpg elements later on. Even without any exp stuff, just the fucking screens are annoying so I stopped using them unless necessary.

Then I made another story where status screens are also a thing, and found the same problem. So suffice it to say, they are mainly for setting purposes. They pop up once in a while, but the whole "system" thing is by far not the focus.

 

[BlackKnightX]

I made the mistake of having my novel have rpg elements later on. Even without any exp stuff, just the fucking screens are annoying so I stopped using them unless necessary.

Then I made another story where status screens are also a thing, and found the same problem. So suffice it to say, they are mainly for setting purposes. They pop up once in a while, but the whole "system" thing is by far not the focus.

I totally understand you!

I wanted to use a number-base system in my story, but I was just too lazy to calculate all that. So I ended up using alphabet-base system, instead.

Though, even then, it only pops up once in a while. ?

 

[Biggest-Kusa-Out-There]

It becomes easier when the 'xp' is a tangible and concrete thing instead of an invisible thing that has no justification no matter the lens.
I hate to say this, but xianxia does it really well in how people grow in power with the profound myriad energies of heavenly tribulations white blossom sect JUNIOR DO YOU DARE?
However, it would take me more than a quarter of an incence's time to explain it in depth, so I wont.
Personally, I use one of those exponential calculations to measure how much 'xp' characters need to level up, and give each creature a certain amount based on its level that the charactes absorb when they kill them. That way I just add the numbers and see how much levels they gain, if any at all.

 

[CupcakeNinja]

It becomes easier when the 'xp' is a tangible and concrete thing instead of an invisible thing that has no justification no matter the lens.
I hate to say this, but xianxia does it really well in how people grow in power with the profound myriad energies of heavenly tribulations white blossom sect JUNIOR DO YOU DARE?
However, it would take me more than a quarter of an incence's time to explain it in depth, so I wont.
Personally, I use one of those exponential calculations to measure how much 'xp' characters need to level up, and give each creature a certain amount based on its level that the charactes absorb when they kill them. That way I just add the numbers and see how much levels they gain, if any at all.

yeah xianxia has some of the best, most thought out powerup systems. Especially when its not purely about energy gaining, but understanding the Dao and stuff.

 

[BlackKnightX]

It becomes easier when the 'xp' is a tangible and concrete thing instead of an invisible thing that has no justification no matter the lens.
I hate to say this, but xianxia does it really well in how people grow in power with the profound myriad energies of heavenly tribulations white blossom sect JUNIOR DO YOU DARE?
However, it would take me more than a quarter of an incence's time to explain it in depth, so I wont.
Personally, I use one of those exponential calculations to measure how much 'xp' characters need to level up, and give each creature a certain amount based on its level that the charactes absorb when they kill them. That way I just add the numbers and see how much levels they gain, if any at all.

It’s the same as evolution path, right? Like when the mc starts out as a monster, then evolves into another species and so on.

 

[Chaos_Sinner777]

Thus far, I have not used specific numbers, not even a percentage bar. I just level them up arbitrarily when I want them to. It could be mildly interesting if you use simple math for it. Buuuuut, still too much work. Still. Base ten EXP earned for killing a monster of the same level, ten percent up or down based on level difference, one hundred EXP to move from LVL 1 to LVL 2, double EXP requirements each level, and boom. Easy enough. Definitely a hassle though. Plus I like to have grinding happen "Offscreen".

 

[ElijahRyne]

It’s the same as evolution path, right? Like when the mc starts out as a monster, then evolves into another species and so on.

Similar, but in evolution, the evolutions may be specialized. You start out as a dog who can run about, is tame, and are a solid omnivore. Turn into wolf, less tame, can run on little energy, still an omnivore but leans on carnivore. Lives in desert, evolves into fiery wolf. Very irratible, needs to consume creatures with fire mana, can run long distances if satiated, and has some control of fire. Evolve into fire wolf, can directly consume fire mana, can not easily act on the physical world, is greatly harmed by water, can run as long as it does not meet water.
Creatures/Mc tend to get stronger in certain fields, while losing abilities that may help them adapt to new environments.
Also dogs and wolfs med. sized packs(10-30 adults), fiery wolves small packs (4-10 adults), and fire wolves travels with mate and young children(1-3 adults).

 

[BlackKnightX]

Thus far, I have not used specific numbers, not even a percentage bar. I just level them up arbitrarily when I want them to. It could be mildly interesting if you use simple math for it. Buuuuut, still too much work. Still. Base ten EXP earned for killing a monster of the same level, ten percent up or down based on level difference, one hundred EXP to move from LVL 1 to LVL 2, double EXP requirements each level, and boom. Easy enough. Definitely a hassle though. Plus I like to have grinding happen "Offscreen".

There’s also the skill’s effects in LitRPG. Like 15% increase in fire-magic-attack, or something like that. So I kind of wonder, if the authors really calculate all that. Seems like a lot of work to me.

 

[Biggest-Kusa-Out-There]

There’s also the skill’s effects in LitRPG. Like 15% increase in fire-magic-attack, or something like that. So I kind of wonder, if the authors really calculate all that. Seems like a lot of work to me.

Personally I use realistic measurements for weapons/skills. Magic doesn't deal magic damage, and it's pretty... lazy to treat it as such in any dimension of the concept.

If the MC is a pyromancer in a dungeon full of tungsten-made monsters they should be the most useless being in existance... "BUT THEY DON'T HAVE MAGIC RESISTANCE SO MC WILL WIN KEKE", like... you know? "I DON'T CARE IF STEEL MELTS AT 1400 DEGREES CELSIUS, MY MC WILL MELT THAT GOLEM WITH A LVL 1 FLAME SPELL THAT CAN'T BURN MEAT BECAUSE THE PLOT DEMANDS IT SOMETIMES!"

Like... you have a lvl 100 antagonist focused entirely on defensive skills and stats. They have 10000 "constitution" and they can resist a meteor falling from space on their head. They eat poison for breakfast, they shit diamonds, they reflect UV rays with only their skin, their bite could create blackholes with the sheer strength... but they lose to the 'mana intrusion' spells the mc has at half their level.

Thus far, I have not used specific numbers, not even a percentage bar. I just level them up arbitrarily when I want them to. It could be mildly interesting if you use simple math for it. Buuuuut, still too much work. Still. Base ten EXP earned for killing a monster of the same level, ten percent up or down based on level difference, one hundred EXP to move from LVL 1 to LVL 2, double EXP requirements each level, and boom. Easy enough. Definitely a hassle though. Plus I like to have grinding happen "Offscreen".

Please explain to me how and why would a creature give less xp depending on the person killing them? What in-world systematical/universal law justifies this? How does the system determine who kills the monster and how much xp is given? Is your world a coded videogame? This issue it has a lot to do with retention rates in videogames and giving the player the illusion of progress. It's a predatory marketing strategy to form addiction (not hardcore, but addiction nonetheless) on players based on progress through diminishing returns. To seek the next big thing, to want more, to buy more, to feed the cog, to not stay in place and grind the same mobs over and over. A capitalist-based concept like this can't realistically be part of a fantasy world's system in which reality itself is based on. Any merchant in your world should have realized this and the economic system should be similar to today's earth if they have the smallest gram of intellect, provided they are predatory parasites.

You see, diminishing returns are there to keep the player in check because it's a game, not reality. The game company needs the player to play longer. It needs the player to spend more time, money, effort, etc in the product and not advance at the player's own discretion. And everything in the game is made so that can be possible, built around diminishing returns to extend game time.

Imagine a piglet gives 10 xp. I need 100 xp to reach level 2. With diminishing returns of 10% less experience per different level to the user, and increasing the required xp by 2 times for the next level, you're basically creating a plot hole:

10 piglets = lvl 2 (100xp) 1 piglet = 10xp (100xp total)
33,3 piglets = lvl 3 (200xp) 1 piglet = 9xp (300xp total)
50 piglets = lvl 4 (400xp) 1 piglet = 8xp (700xp total)
114,2 piglets = lvl 5 (800xp) 1 piglet = 7xp (1.500xp total)
266 piglets = lvl 6 (1.600xp) 1 piglet = 6xp (3.100xp total)
640 piglets = lvl 7 (3.200xp) 1 piglet = 5xp (6.300xp total)
1.600 piglets = lvl 8 (6.400xp) 1 piglet = 4xp (12.700xp total)
4.266,6 piglets = lvl 9 (12.800xp) 1 piglet = 3xp (25.500xp total)
12.800 piglets = lvl 10 (25600xp) 1 piglet = 2xp (51.100xp total)

19.780 piglets to reach lvl 10. I'll go ahead and assume your world is logical at the basics and everything starts at lvl 1. This means everything above lvl 10 is a war veteran with thousands of lives under their belt. If not, then it's 5100 creatures your mc needs to kill to get to lvl 10.

This is a plot hole. Everyone above lvl 10 has killed thousands at the very least. This means violence is ultra high in your world, to the point it should be insane to live in it.

 

[Chaos_Sinner777]

Personally I use realistic measurements for weapons/skills. Magic doesn't deal magic damage, and it's pretty... lazy to treat it as such in any dimension of the concept.

If the MC is a pyromancer in a dungeon full of tungsten-made monsters they should be the most useless being in existance... "BUT THEY DON'T HAVE MAGIC RESISTANCE SO MC WILL WIN KEKE", like... you know? "I DON'T CARE IF STEEL MELTS AT 1400 DEGREES CELSIUS, MY MC WILL MELT THAT GOLEM WITH A LVL 1 FLAME SPELL THAT CAN'T BURN MEAT BECAUSE THE PLOT DEMANDS IT SOMETIMES!"

Like... you have a lvl 100 antagonist focused entirely on defensive skills and stats. They have 10000 "constitution" and they can resist a meteor falling from space on their head. They eat poison for breakfast, they shit diamonds, they reflect UV rays with only their skin, their bite could create blackholes with the sheer strength... but they lose to the 'mana intrusion' spells the mc has at half their level.

Please explain to me how and why would a creature give less xp depending on the person killing them? What in-world systematical/universal law justifies this? How does the system determine who kills the monster and how much xp is given? Is your world a coded videogame? This issue it has a lot to do with retention rates in videogames and giving the player the illusion of progress. It's a predatory marketing strategy to form addiction (not hardcore, but addiction nonetheless) on players based on progress through diminishing returns. To seek the next big thing, to want more, to buy more, to feed the cog, to not stay in place and grind the same mobs over and over. A capitalist-based concept like this can't realistically be part of a fantasy world's system in which reality itself is based on. Any merchant in your world should have realized this and the economic system should be similar to today's earth if they have the smallest gram of intellect, provided they are predatory parasites.

You see, diminishing returns are there to keep the player in check because it's a game, not reality. The game company needs the player to play longer. It needs the player to spend more time, money, effort, etc in the product and not advance at the player's own discretion. And everything in the game is made so that can be possible, built around diminishing returns to extend game time.

Imagine a piglet gives 10 xp. I need 100 xp to reach level 2. With diminishing returns of 10% less experience per different level to the user, and increasing the required xp by 2 times for the next level, you're basically creating a plot hole:

10 piglets = lvl 2 (100xp) 1 piglet = 10xp (100xp total)
33,3 piglets = lvl 3 (200xp) 1 piglet = 9xp (300xp total)
50 piglets = lvl 4 (400xp) 1 piglet = 8xp (700xp total)
114,2 piglets = lvl 5 (800xp) 1 piglet = 7xp (1.500xp total)
266 piglets = lvl 6 (1.600xp) 1 piglet = 6xp (3.100xp total)
640 piglets = lvl 7 (3.200xp) 1 piglet = 5xp (6.300xp total)
1.600 piglets = lvl 8 (6.400xp) 1 piglet = 4xp (12.700xp total)
4.266,6 piglets = lvl 9 (12.800xp) 1 piglet = 3xp (25.500xp total)
12.800 piglets = lvl 10 (25600xp) 1 piglet = 2xp (51.100xp total)

19.780 piglets to reach lvl 10. I'll go ahead and assume your world is logical at the basics and everything starts at lvl 1. This means everything above lvl 10 is a war veteran with thousands of lives under their belt. If not, then it's 5100 creatures your mc needs to kill to get to lvl 10.

This is a plot hole. Everyone above lvl 10 has killed thousands at the very least. This means violence is ultra high in your world, to the point it should be insane to live in it.

For starters, I meant the EXP decreases when you're a higher level than the thing you're killing. So if you kill a LVL two piglet as a level two person, you'd still get ten EXP. If that still seems too extreme, then just assume it's 100 EXP for every level with diminished returns from killing weaker monsters just because the fight is too easy? I mean, it wouldn't make sense for a level ten person to kill ten farm animals to go up to level eleven, right? And there could always be dungeons that can spawn monsters at higher levels. Or special jackpot monsters that are worth more EXP in the first place.

For that matter, I don't think it's even a problem to have a world where LVL 10 requires thousands of kills. Just have the scaling such that even one level makes a big difference. Like Danmachi. You're not gonna see a level six adventurer EVER level up just from killing level two Minotaurs in Danmachi.

 

[Biggest-Kusa-Out-There]

I mean, it wouldn't make sense for a level ten person to kill ten farm animals to go up to level eleven, right? And there could always be dungeons that can spawn monsters at higher levels. Or special jackpot monsters that are worth more EXP in the first place.

It makes absolute sense, that's why you buy meat in the supermarket instead of hunting it on your own. Convenience is a universal goal. If I can level up by killing "farm animals" (piglets live in the wild too, but i'll go with your example), instead of something that may kill me... you can bet your sweet bippy I will, and thousands of others will as well --> demand meets offer --> some farms focus on breeding easy to kill animals and charge you low if not outright pay you as you're more of a butcher than an adventurer.

Danmachi has an extremely plot-dependand system full of holes. Not a very good example at all. You have to assume a lot to arrive at any conctrete answer when analyzing it. Not saying it's bad, just not good for what we're talking about.

And yes, maybe lvl 15 or 20 is the lvl cap.

For starters, I meant the EXP decreases when you're a higher level than the thing you're killing. So if you kill a LVL two piglet as a level two person, you'd still get ten EXP.

That's exactly what I did in the calculation, a piglet gives less experience the higher your level. Still, you stated a creature your own lvl gives 10 exp and I pointed out that you'd need to kill around 5100 creatures all your own level when going up as you need 51.100 experience total to reach lvl 10.

As you pointed out, if a level gives such a difference in power, why would anyone fight stronger enemies and risk their lives to gain 10% more (which means 11xp or 12xp and so on)? You HAVE to answer this questions to give your world either relatability or logic. Now, if a group of people team up to kill more powerful beings, that's okay and would make the leveling process even slower as I'd assume the xp is split among the members. This could happen in very rare occasions or smth, but not as a rule of normalcy if people care about leveling up consistently. If they don't, then that's cool but also means people know the risks of hunting monsters and would be responsible about their own lives at the very least.

 

[Zirrboy]

does it really matter when both lit rpg and cultivation have enough other modifiers (skills, class, thousand thunder rising dragon imperial body art, plot armor) to make it essentially pointless as description of power?

 

[Chaos_Sinner777]

It makes absolute sense, that's why you buy meat in the supermarket instead of hunting it on your own. Convenience is a universal goal. If I can level up by killing "farm animals" (piglets live in the wild too, but i'll go with your example), instead of something that may kill me... you can bet your sweet bippy I will, and thousands of others will as well --> demand meets offer --> some farms focus on breeding easy to kill animals and charge you low if not outright pay you as you're more of a butcher than an adventurer.

Danmachi has an extremely plot-dependand system full of holes. Not a very good example at all. You have to assume a lot to arrive at any conctrete answer when analyzing it. Not saying it's bad, just not good for what we're talking about.

And yes, maybe lvl 15 or 20 is the lvl cap.


That's exactly what I did in the calculation, a piglet gives less experience the higher your level. Still, you stated a creature your own lvl gives 10 exp and I pointed out that you'd need to kill around 5100 creatures all your own level when going up as you need 51.100 experience total to reach lvl 10.

As you pointed out, if a level gives such a difference in power, why would anyone fight stronger enemies and risk their lives to gain 10% more (which means 11xp or 12xp and so on)? You HAVE to answer this questions to give your world either relatability or logic. Now, if a group of people team up to kill more powerful beings, that's okay and would make the leveling process even slower as I'd assume the xp is split among the members. This could happen in very rare occasions or smth, but not as a rule of normalcy if people care about leveling up consistently. If they don't, then that's cool but also means people know the risks of hunting monsters and would be responsible about their own lives at the very least.

Weird brain think. Errrrr. Guess my thought of meaningful levels didn't quite work for the general idea there. Okay, maybe, drop the Level difference modifying EXP values altogether and just give creatures an EXP value based on their level, and maybe type? Animals being ten EXP per level, monsters being twenty, and so on. Then there would still be value killing things closer to your level, but grinding could be managed reasonably well even on really weak things. Anyway, my first comment was just some simple math I came up with on the spot, not something I was seriously intending to use. . . Though given it was meant to be simple, the modifier didn't work for that either.

 

[Zirrboy]

If the MC is a pyromancer in a dungeon full of tungsten-made monsters they should be the most useless being in existance... "BUT THEY DON'T HAVE MAGIC RESISTANCE SO MC WILL WIN KEKE", like... you know? "I DON'T CARE IF STEEL MELTS AT 1400 DEGREES CELSIUS, MY MC WILL MELT THAT GOLEM WITH A LVL 1 FLAME SPELL THAT CAN'T BURN MEAT BECAUSE THE PLOT DEMANDS IT SOMETIMES!"

Ever had the joy of playing a dark souls game?

And from a game design perspective, isn't that the exact reason you include "magic" damage in the first place?
Content creation costs money, time and people, so if you stretch playtime to the point of making people grind so they pay, wouldn't making certain areas unplayable be stupid?

It makes absolute sense, that's why you buy meat in the supermarket instead of hunting it on your own. Convenience is a universal goal. If I can level up by killing "farm animals" (piglets live in the wild too, but i'll go with your example), instead of something that may kill me... you can bet your sweet bippy I will, and thousands of others will as well --> demand meets offer --> some farms focus on breeding easy to kill animals and charge you low if not outright pay you as you're more of a butcher than an adventurer.

uhhh
But if xp was in such high demand, why would the slaughter houses opt out of making profit from it?
There are a lot more adventurers than butcher positions imo.

And even if there were, to shamelessly abuse your argument of world consistency, wouldn't that mean that people would have to eat multiple kilograms of meat per day?

 

[Biggest-Kusa-Out-There]

Ever had the joy of playing a dark souls game?

And from a game design perspective, isn't that the exact reason you include "magic" damage in the first place?
Content creation costs money, time and people, so if you stretch playtime to the point of making people grind so they pay, wouldn't making certain areas unplayable be stupid?

Yes, I had the joy of playing dark souls games. Faith builds are pretty fun and overall the chad build.

But electricity has a physical effect on anything. Rubber doesn't need magic def to resist a lightning bolt, nor should it in a LitRPG unless it's a game world like SAO, Log Horizon, Yggdrassil from Overlord, etc. And it's a cool concept to be trapped in a videogame, but remember that SAO itself is a shit game that has no business being as popular as it is.

If you want your game world to be a Hardcore Full Loot PvP game, be realistic and have no more than 50 people playing in it. You can have an amazing story with an extremely well developed cast with 50 characters and be realistic in the sense that nobody wastes their time with those games. If a game becomes a chore, it can't be globally popular with millions of players. WoW itself is crumbling due to years of player discontent at the parasitic systems within it, and now the straw that broke the camel's back pushed the rest out.

To give magic a special, different damage calculator is only there to downplay it to the same level of physical classes for early game. The weakest fire you can produce without magic burns at about 500 degrees celsius in reality, which is normal wood you can find almost all over the planet. That would absolutely charr a human being.

I don't know what exactly you mean by unplayable areas. In Genshin Impact, there are blocked off areas precisely to extend gameplay, if you drop the full game on day 1 without arbitrary limiations like a set amount of resources you can spend to advance, people who like to min max and optimize everything will get to max lvl with everything in the game in a week. This way, making unplayable areas is a very monetary smart choice from the company, as it extends the time the player gets milked. If you play Genshin Impact for the precise amount of time you need to advance and never waste time, you'll see that you have like 5 days of gameplay in total when you reach AR 80 or so. Extend that for 1 year = grofit.

Games are a product, and you can't realistically base an entire world's system on a product without there being holes everywhere. If your world is a game, however, it works wonders and I encourage you to look for a balanced system.

 

[Zirrboy]

Yes, I had the joy of playing dark souls games. Faith builds are pretty fun and overall the chad build.

But electricity has a physical effect on anything. Rubber doesn't need magic def to resist a lightning bolt, nor should it in a LitRPG unless it's a game world like SAO, Log Horizon, Yggdrassil from Overlord, etc. And it's a cool concept to be trapped in a videogame, but remember that SAO itself is a shit game that has no business being as popular as it is.

If you want your game world to be a Hardcore Full Loot PvP game, be realistic and have no more than 50 people playing in it. You can have an amazing story with an extremely well developed cast with 50 characters and be realistic in the sense that nobody wastes their time with those games. If a game becomes a chore, it can't be globally popular with millions of players. WoW itself is crumbling due to years of player discontent at the parasitic systems within it, and now the straw that broke the camel's back pushed the rest out.

To give magic a special, different damage calculator is only there to downplay it to the same level of physical classes for early game. The weakest fire you can produce without magic burns at about 500 degrees celsius in reality, which is normal wood you can find almost all over the planet. That would absolutely charr a human being.

I don't know what exactly you mean by unplayable areas. In Genshin Impact, there are blocked off areas precisely to extend gameplay, if you drop the full game on day 1 without arbitrary limiations like a set amount of resources you can spend to advance, people who like to min max and optimize everything will get to max lvl with everything in the game in a week. This way, making unplayable areas is a very monetary smart choice from the company, as it extends the time the player gets milked. If you play Genshin Impact for the precise amount of time you need to advance and never waste time, you'll see that you have like 5 days of gameplay in total when you reach AR 80 or so. Extend that for 1 year = grofit.

Games are a product, and you can't realistically base an entire world's system on a product without there being holes everywhere. If your world is a game, however, it works wonders and I encourage you to look for a balanced system.

What I mean by "unplayable" is your pyromancer in the golem factory scenario.

It sure makes a lot of real world sense to have the player be dogshit in that area.
But if so, why would they spend time and whatever monetization resource the game in question charges to play it?

One possible solution is the magic damage.
A basic fire spell would then deal say one fourth of its damage as magic.
The enemies have resistances in the respective damage types, which in this example would be high fire and average to low magic.
Sure, you're still better in the forest of wizard ents while its the other way around for a pure sorcerer, but its playable, at least.

OP/inconsistent skills are cancer, I agree with you on that, but game elements are the chosen explanation, not the culprit here, imo.

 

[PhillisCreziles]

A mix of both calculating and estimating.