Deep vs. Shallow Archetypes: Writing characters who use extreme personas to hide fragility.

[AdiofBali]

"I'm hell bent on reminding everyone YOU called your own character that."
As a meme dude. I imagine if the creator of Overlord jokingly called Ainz a fascist half-heartedly as joke. 'Cause y'know, a medieval ruler that wants to keep his territory safe is absolutely nonsensical to be called that?
Harpies like you wound hound him days later about his statement nonstop while everyone wonders why you're so hung up on something that never supposed to be taken seriously in the first place.

"Every time you lie and pretend you didn't and was just me."
It's a joke, jesus. I added more context to his character but you only care about that one word as if you'll freaking die if you let go of it and accept the fact that politically powerful characters have their own nuances that can't be neatly labeled as 'fascist.'

"Though honestly, there are only so many times I can keep responding to you going "nuh ah, I did not say what I said" before the taint of your nonsense stains me, and I think I'm beyond that point already."
Yet you still comment.
Like, if someone told you that they killed people in the most horrific ways possible, but he later added that it was in Minecraft, would you go telling everyone he's a serial killer?
That you think he lied because he explained the dumb torture methods he used like entity cramming, a bugged piston that makes it looks like its arm is going in an out of an entity without the plate end, mob farms, etc.?

 

[MissRiWrites]

I'm so sorry for your thread derailments
*sympatethic japanese bow*

but thanks for noticing

Ok, everything you said is COMPLETELY WRONG. I don't even know where you're getting THAT from. Ugh, just look at this:

Galan Andre Von Athalon is a god who has already won.

He conquered the Roman Empire, reshaped its laws, and satiated his vengeance. But for a god-king, peace is a hollow victory when it is haunted by the ghost of the woman he couldn't save.

To escape a grief his throne cannot silence, Galan accepts a task from the divine council. He must investigate the spectral warriors slaughtering the guilty across Japan. Under the guise of a common tourist named Odagawa, he enters a land of profitable stalemates and ancient yookai secrets.

To save the archipelago, he must confront the tyrant he once was and the widower he is now. If he fails, the fragile balance will collapse, proving that justice was never his nature, only the monster he has always known himself to be.

---

That's my tagline. Here's the synopsis I made when I was querying. It's a bit of a spoiler, but since the story is slow-paced, idk it matters if I spoil half of it:

SYNOPSIS: CHRONICLES OF THE SAVIOR: GHOST OF VENGEANCE

By I Gede Adi Ananda Kusuma​

GALAN ANDRE VON ATHALON is a god, a former emperor of the Roman Empire, and a widower bored with immortality. Seeking a distraction from the grief of losing his wife, THEARA, he accepts a mission from the divine council. He must travel to the island nation of Japan to investigate the vengeful spirits that are slaughtering sinners in the forests. Galan descends to the mortal realm and adopts the persona of ODAGAWA, a wealthy and carefree tourist, albeit one haunted by the decisions of his past.

Arriving in the Summer Beach Port of Tsushima, Galan discovers a society in a fragile but profitable stalemate. Humans and magical beings called Yookai coexist uneasily, bound by mutual economic reliance rather than trust. However, a moment of boredom turns into a nightmare as his mind forces him to relive the massacre of a corrupt noble's retinue, a slaughter he and the Roman gods orchestrated forty years ago to liberate the slaves within the empire. This flashback, and the ones that follow, reveals the tyrant within him and the terrifying cost of his own brand of justice.

Guided by a restaurant owner who suggests finding accommodation in the village of Moon’s Valley, Galan decides to find high-profile figures to aid his investigation by immersing himself in the culture. He attends a fighting tournament and meets KUWABARA MASAHIKO, an elderly human magistrate. They engage in a series of philosophical debates regarding the nature of justice, where Masahiko reveals that the spirits target not only criminals but also high-ranking samurai.

Once the tournament concludes, Galan starts the next phase of his investigation by entering the ring to accept the challenge of the champion, SHUTEN DOOJI. Galan displays overwhelming power and earns the respect of the Japanese demons called Oni. He also gains the curiosity of OOTAKE MARU, a stoic strategist who dreams of a united society. Through these alliances, Galan gains access to the local power structure.

---

MagicBunyip constantly made a bad faith argument againts my MC instead of just asking for clarification and made it spiral out of control.
LIke, he could ask me what kind of husband my MC was, but ended up assuming he was abusive at first, then assume he was neglectful after I added more context to his character. Like, wtf yo.

He then kept harping on about how my medieval era dark age emperor is a fascist, which gives severe whiplash at how politically illiterate that sentence is. Like, is Joffrey Baratheon a fascist? The sheer idea is so nonsensical that I don't even know how to respond at first. But I already explained it, just press Ctrl + F and type fascist. You'll find my, and CharlesEBrown's explanation for it.




It's the other way around. I already completed volume I before I came here, so that's that's why I got so much receipt on the lore. I just thought memeing about my MC would be better than making a whole manifesto about him from the start y'know? Then everything went out of hand.



Yeah, it wasn't my intention. Sorry for that.

It is okay...continue your discussion. Don't apologize!

Before the storm gathers-Prana ​

 

[MFontana]

When asked you agreed and identified your perfect deity good governance character as being 100% a fascist strong man.

Your character is a fascist.

You present fascism as the answer.

You are a fascist.

I'm out. I do not talk to fascists.

No one should.

Let me see if I understand your reasoning here.
Someone writes a fictional story where their leading character is 'fascist'. And because they do so, they, in turn, are 'fascist'? (Bear in mind, I am using the word in context with the quoted post, rather than its actual definition at present to highlight the fallacy).

So, by extension, if this logic were to hold-up anyway, If you wrote a work of fiction set in World War 2 wherein the protagonist was a member of the Nazi party, and soldier in the German army who displayed many of the traditional heroic traits as he fought in the war, that would make you, the author, a Nazi, regardless of your own personal beliefs or feelings on the matter?

How does that even make sense any logical sense?

It sounds, to me anyway, like an inability on your part to separate the fiction from reality, or the author, while simultaneously being a rather crudely presented ad hominem fallacious attack against the character of an author, and person, whom you know nothing about in lieu of a spectacularly failing argument in the debate. And all of this is, setting aside the clearly modern, and incorrect, use of the word itself given the context of the remainder of the off-topic discussion here.

That aside, I was under the impression that bringing up politics of any kind, unless directly and immediately related to both the thread topic, and their use or inclusion in narrative fiction, was in poor taste here in the forum, given how vitriolic and how toxic any discussion on the subject can quickly become.

So, following this, or the immediate and subsequent answer to this post if one is forthcoming, I'd would like to propose we all get this thread back on topic. Any further debate, if one is desired, may be best served through the site's group conversation/private-message feature rather than this thread.

 

[AdiofBali]

First off, massive thanks to @MFontana for steering the ship back to sanity. 🙇‍♂

Now, since this thread is all about Deep vs. Shallow Archetypes: Writing characters who use extreme personas to hide fragility, I want to share my take on Shuten Dooji.

On the surface, Shuten looks like the ultimate "shallow" archetype. If you read the common human folklore, he’s just a massive, red-skinned, drunken brute who guzzles sake by the barrel, brawls constantly, and acts as a walking calamity.

But in Ghost of Vengeance, I wanted to deconstruct that exact myth. He uses his boisterous, arrogant, and party-obsessed persona to mask severe trauma and survivor's guilt.

Here are a few ways his extreme persona hides his fragility:

1. The Literal and Metaphorical Scar: Shuten was actually defeated in his past. He was tricked with poisoned sake by Raikoo (a mortal human champion) and got decapitated. He got revived later in a newly deceased body of another strong oni, but the operation causes him to carry a permanent, physical scar circling his neck, a constant, daily reminder of his greatest failure and his weakness.
2. The Weight of the Fallen: He was a hot-headed young oni who picked fights he couldn't win. He only survived because his closest friends and lieutenants (like Hoshiguma and Torakuma) bailed him out or died protecting him. He carries massive survivor's guilt because the people who made his glory possible are gone.
3. Defiant Joy as a Shield: Why does he drink and party so aggressively? It's his primary coping mechanism. When he gives his speech to the onsen partygoers during a party, he reveals his philosophy: "The best way to honor the fallen is not with tears! It's by living a life so loud, so full of food, sake, and good fights, that the echoes of our party reach them all the way in Makai!" He's literally trying to drown out the silence of his dead friends with noise, choosing to honor them with explosive life instead of quiet mourning.
4. The Burden of Leadership: Despite his drunken antics, he’s highly protective of his remaining crew (like Ibaraki Dooji). He knows that if he hosts a massive tournament on his own territory (Mount Ooe), the local daimyoo will see it as a declaration of war. He plays the fool and participates in Tsushima's regulated tournament to give his people a safe outlet, protecting them from another Daikonzetsu (Great Eradication).

He is a tragic survivor who chooses to mask his grief with explosive, defiant life. He hides his pain beneath a mask of revelry because he refuses to let his people see their champion weep.

Fell context here:

Spoiler: Shuten Dooji's Speech

He stands, his massive frame dripping with hot onsen water as he says the next word with tension in his voice.

Shuten Dooji: “Alright.”

The partygoers become quiet, their attention turned to the party's host as he lifts the ‘Oni no Namida’ high in the air. Shuten Dooji then begins speaking with an unusually normal and authoritative tone.

“Minna-San…” deep breath “I know you’ve been waiting for the true party to start… But before we uncork the hyotan, I want this to be more than just a party full of drunkenness and revelry.”

Looking around, Galan notices that people outside of the party are also listening to Shuten Dooji, his hawong telling him that they’re captivated by the sheer contrast to his earlier brashness.

Shuten Dooji: “It will be joyful, yes… But more than that… I want this to be an opportunity to tell you who I really am.”

He looks out as he lowers the hyotan, his gaze settled on his distant past.

“A long time ago, on the slopes of Ibuki… I wasn't the champion that you see today. I was just another young, hot-headed oni… With more muscles than sense."

{Mount Ibuki | Ibukiyama | 伊吹山 | Shuten Dooji’s Childhood Home}

"I picked fights I couldn't win… Got myself cornered by the nin-gen and rival yookai who wanted my head for a trophy more times than I can count… And honestly… I should’ve ended up as dust… LONG before I got anywhere."

He pauses, his eyes glimmering with a mournful sheen.

"But I never did… Because there were always others there to bail me out.” soft breath “Hoshiguma, an oni with a laugh as loud as her kanaboo was heavy, who shattered a ningen’s cavalry charge meant for me. Torakuma, who dragged my sorry hide out of a ravine after a... Disagreement... With a certain mountain Kami on Mount Hiei."

{Kanaboo | 金棒 | Iron Club}
{Hoshiguma Dooji | 熊童子 | One of Shuten Dooji's Lieutenant}
{Torakuma Dooji | 虎熊童子 | One of Shuten Dooji's Most Powerful Warrior}
{Mount Hiei | Hiei Zan | 比叡山 | Home of the Ooyama Tsumi Kami}
{Ooyama Tsumi Kami | 大山津見神 | The Great Mountain God}

Shuten Dooji: "They… Amongst many others...” looks down “Will not be here to drink with us this evening..."

Some in the crowd also look down, with the kerwynai closing their eyes and clasping their hands on their chest. Using his hawong, Galan can feel the sheer grief of all the great oni ahead of him, desperately trying to hold back their tears.

But the sharpest tinge of loss comes from the greatest oni, a grief as real as those he'd felt from the nin-gen in the opera house. But just as quickly as it appears, the somber mood shatters as Shuten Dooji snaps his head up, his fangs bared in a wide grin.

Shuten Dooji: “But the best way to honor the fallen is not with tears! It's by living a life so loud, so full of food, sake, and good fights, that the echoes of our party reach them all the way in Makai!”

A roar of approval erupts from the oni as they utter their: “Banzai!” and “Kanpai!”

{Banzai! | 万歳！| May we live a long life!}
{Kanpai! | 乾杯！| Cheers!}

“For THAT is why we fight! THAT is why we put our lives on the line! For the happiness of all yookai, and the freedom to enjoy life to its fullest!" raises his gourd

"And I couldn't do it alone!” looks to his left “I give my sincerest thanks to my crew!”

They all bow as his gaze shifts to Ibaraki Dooji.

“To Iba, who keeps losing bets to me!”
Ibaraki Dooji: grins while looking to the side “Hmph.”

Shuten Dooji: turns to the sky “To Kuma and Guma, the ones who kept me from being burned by my own fire!” looks around ”And lastly, to all of you who came to cheer me on!”

More exuberant cheers from the partygoers pass by.

uncorks his hyotan “With that, let us enjoy this feast!” bows deeply “Itadakimasu!” sits back down

The onsen explodes into a cacophony of cheers and shouts, with some saying back: “Itadakimasu” as they release the cork of their hyotan with ease. Intrigued by this, Galan uses his hawong to dig into the minds of Shuten Dooji’s crew, discovering memories of them pre-softening the cork by soaking the neck of the hyotan in warm water.

What do you guys think? Do you prefer this kind of deconstruction of legendary "monsters," or do you like them better when they're just flat-out terrifying?