Trying to write crippling overspecialization in a balanced stats system.

[NotaNuffian]

Context: a normal human body has to be somewhat balanced.

You can't have a good throwing arm without also having some legs and hips.

Same thing if you are a marathon sprinter, it is not all Dex no Str.

But it is over here that I am possibly bummed out.

What exactly are the stats that should be related to one another?

Should the Int stat even be related to any of the physical stats (Str, Dex, Con)? If yes, then Hawkings is a miracle and so is every Wizards in D&D.

Context: I gave myself a minimum ratio between the D&D stats of Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis and Cha.

For the physical stats, they shall not be too different from one another. That means if the stats must be at least half of the highest stat. If Str is ten, Dex and Con must at least be five.

Same thing with mental stats (Int, Wis). There is a ratio between the two.

Charisma is a stat of its own as it covers the physical aspect as well as mental (EQ).

The current issue I am struggling is to make sense if I should also balance between the physical and mental stats.

 

[melchi]

?

 

[NotaNuffian]

?

You giving me the "?" means that my explanation seem to not work.

So to put it bluntly, I made a shoddy LitRPG system that forces users to not be a total munchkin and just pool their best stat while ignoring other stats.

But right now, I am trying to have characters do a generalist vs specialist kind of thing.

So right now I am miffed if I should modify or even remove the so called restrictions.

 

[triflight]

Whether or not TO balance is up to you as an author. We can't give advice on that without an in depth review of your setting and your planned plot and even then you'll get different answers from everyone. I can, however, give you some things to think about.

Stat balancing mostly comes up, in my opinion, when authors are trying to make a more realistic LitRPG. After all, in real life you can't specialize in stats the same way you can in a game. There are a bunch of ways to do it and I've seen good and I've seen bad.

Commonly, I see a requirement where high str or dex requires high int and wis. A stronger body requires a stronger mind to control. A strong mind requires a strong body to be able to use it to its best ability. Pretty standard. Taken to the extreme this would be someone that invested heavily in body stats with nothing in mental stats would have difficulty moving or might even be unable to move. Someone with strong mental and no body would see the world in slow motion and be unable to react.

Another method, similar though, could be circumstance and job based. A fighter might be able to hit like a truck and move faster than a train but they also need the mental stats to think at that speed and calculate trajectories and plan moves. A chef might be able to plan the most wonderful recipe but they need to be able to slice their carrots finely and evenly or maybe they can chop really well but need to be able to time flipping pancakes in their head for the perfect browning. A wizard might be able to cast powerful spells but they need a stronger body to channel more magical energy and also need to be able to dodge. This way, there's no actual limitation set in stone on what they can and can't specialize in but to be truly exemplary in your field, you do need to spread your stats out. Plus it leaves room for more jokey characters that ARE specialized. Maybe the mailman has a track that he runs on to the next town that has no obstacles so he doesn't need to think, he can just...sprint. All in on dex baby!

Really if you're making stats related to each other, I can't see any real reason why you wouldn't make body and mind stats relate as well.

A counterpoint to the above is, this is a story, stats aren't real. LitRPGs were made to mimic actual RPGs where you CAN specialize so you should be able to specialize in a LitRPG as well. So why make stats related at all?

But at the end of the day, it's your story, you're the author, and I've got no idea what you've got planned so you'll have to choose!

 

[melchi]

Just don't dwell too much on the details. If someone wants to be average in everything then try to find creative ways to solve problems that a generalist will excel at.

Someone may be the best farmer but if they can't do irrigation then it limits where they can farm without outside help for example

 

[BigBadBoi]

Most games have stats bleed over to other aspects especially RPGs and JRPGS. For example, Strength gives a little bit of health and sometimes defense. Constitution/Vitality gives a bit of an attack, etc.
Mental stats are a bit iffy. You can maybe connect INT with brain processing speed aka reaction time but I'm too burnt out on LitRPG slop to help you out in this area.

 

[Cipiteca396]

I think the main problem is that you aren't creating clear distinctions between stats.

You can't have a good throwing arm without also having some legs and hips.

Maybe, but those things are all STR, so there's no conflict here.

Same thing if you are a marathon sprinter, it is not all Dex no Str.

A marathon sprinter would need STR for burst movement, DEX for control, and CON for lasting the whole way. In other words, this is an extremely balanced build.
For Overspecialization, you would have Sprinter for STR, some kind of detail crafter for DEX, and a regular marathon runner or laborer for CON.

Should the Int stat even be related to any of the physical stats (Str, Dex, Con)? If yes, then Hawkings is a miracle and so is every Wizards in D&D.

Hawkings is an excellent example of Overspecialization. A pro body builder works for STR too, or a stage magician for DEX.

But it is over here that I am possibly bummed out.

What exactly are the stats that should be related to one another?

I'd say no stats should be directly related to each other. Making three, or five, or twenty stats that don't work unless you invest in them evenly is just bloat. You may as well just have one stat. Like my Body stat!

As for the "crippling" aspect, that just happens by default. If you put all of your points in STR; sure, you'll be able to lift a car, but you'll have the dexterity and endurance of a toddler. Maybe a specific build can make that an acceptable loss, but I don't see a reason to add on extra penalties for something that's already a little foolish.

---

Now, if you want to force balancing for system reasons, that's totally acceptable. But you'll have to come at it from the other direction, instead of trying to find a realistic excuse for it. For example, In order to progress your Tier 1 Body to Tier 2, you'll first have to progress all of your other aspects to Tier 1. Why? "That's just how the system works, bro. Once you go out of balance it starts to get a little... wonky."

 

[CharlesEBrown]

You giving me the "?" means that my explanation seem to not work.

So to put it bluntly, I made a shoddy LitRPG system that forces users to not be a total munchkin and just pool their best stat while ignoring other stats.

But right now, I am trying to have characters do a generalist vs specialist kind of thing.

So right now I am miffed if I should modify or even remove the so called restrictions.

Ah - back when I first got into gaming, I had an idea for a "balanced" system.
First, you had three ratings - Physical, Mental and Personality. Each rating was ranked from 5 to 20 for a human (actual range was 1 to 50 IIRC).
Within each category, there were three actual stats, "bought" by points from the rating score.
So, if you had a 15 for Physical, you would have 45 points to buy Physical Strength, Endurance and Coordination from (all three could be the same, or you could have one way out of balance with the others).
Or if you had a 12 Mental, you had 36 points for Mental Strength, Awareness and Intellect or something like that.
And the Personality rating included Leadership, Appearance and Psychic Power traits.

It got a bit unwieldy, and I never really developed it out much from there - but did have skill points based on the average of all three ratings inverted - i.e. the better your stats, the fewer skills you had (they would be better skills as the base percentage was based on the governing trait, but you would not have as many).

 

[EphemeralEmperor]

You don't have to balance the mental and physical stats per se. But it would be nice if you did. That way you avoid scenarios where someone is absolutely pathetic physically but somehow a mental god of a character or vice versa. Avoid extreme differences, that's rather rare IRL. I know you're writing for LitRPG, but you need to maintain that form of realism or relating to the characters gets difficult for readers. What's more critical, I'd argue, is ensuring the scaling makes sense. How they gain stats, and how much each individual stat value is. Give a ruler for them to understand too. Say STR is being able to lift 10 pounds or something. And make sure whatever stats chars have, your writing doesn't get repetitive as you try to explain supernatural tiers of strength (superhuman, epic, heroic, angel, godly, high god) differences. That could dull the writing if you use the same adjectives and so forth.

Good luck with writing!

 

[NotaNuffian]

I think the main problem is that you aren't creating clear distinctions between stats.

Maybe, but those things are all STR, so there's no conflict here.

A marathon sprinter would need STR for burst movement, DEX for control, and CON for lasting the whole way. In other words, this is an extremely balanced build.
For Overspecialization, you would have Sprinter for STR, some kind of detail crafter for DEX, and a regular marathon runner or laborer for CON.

Hawkings is an excellent example of Overspecialization. A pro body builder works for STR too, or a stage magician for DEX.

I'd say no stats should be directly related to each other. Making three, or five, or twenty stats that don't work unless you invest in them evenly is just bloat. You may as well just have one stat. Like my Body stat!

As for the "crippling" aspect, that just happens by default. If you put all of your points in STR; sure, you'll be able to lift a car, but you'll have the dexterity and endurance of a toddler. Maybe a specific build can make that an acceptable loss, but I don't see a reason to add on extra penalties for something that's already a little foolish.

---

Now, if you want to force balancing for system reasons, that's totally acceptable. But you'll have to come at it from the other direction, instead of trying to find a realistic excuse for it. For example, In order to progress your Tier 1 Body to Tier 2, you'll first have to progress all of your other aspects to Tier 1. Why? "That's just how the system works, bro. Once you go out of balance it starts to get a little... wonky."

Bruv

I have roll all the physical stat into one stat called Body.

10 Body can mean that you can be a bulky bastard that can benchpress buildings but moves like a snail or a lanky loser that is fast as lightning and shortlived like one too.

I also rolled all mental stats like brain smart, brain wise and able to taste infared and hear sweetness into a combined stat called Mind.

Then I asked myself, shouldn't there be a stat for Stamina, Mana and Qi?

Yes there is.

And I also find out why I have this trinity.

Because the chinese had done it to hell since long time ago and I am just stepping into their overused shit.

So it is over here I asked myself, can I further improve on this by balancing?

Short answer, not really because I am unclear on how to even balance.

The idea of ratio-ing also makes sense to me, you can't be superman and punch hard and fast without also being able to think and see fast.

Where is all tha caloric intake? Humans have bioavailability and limit to how much one can absorb and contain in a day.

So far I just take CGPT's idea and soft hard caps.

 

[GlassRose]

Simply put, mental stats do have relations to and interplay with the physical stats, but it's not quite as heavy as the physical stat's interplay with eachother.

Also D&D stats are not sufficient to represent human ability. There's a lot that weirdly stuffed together, or just plain missing. And Charisma isn't a stat. It's a skill, yes modified by one's intrinsic beauty, but not universally, and there's diminishing returns. A more accurate and useful stat breakdown is as follows (though it's more to keep track of)

Physical:

Strength (Muscle power, affects how much weight one can move and with what force. Think momentum, inertia. Think a boulder, rolling slowly. It's not fast, but it's hard to stop)
Agility (Quick muscle movement, affects how fast one can move the weight determined by strength. Does affect damage by virtue of how kinetic energy works, but strength is still important too. Optionally, also includes reaction time)
Dexterity (Precision of movement, and flexiblity. Useful for heavily skill-based tasks, like sword fighting, dancing, playing instruments, crafting)
Resistance/Constitution (Basically, durability, resistance of the body to damage)
Vitality (More optional, this affects healing rate and hp if such a thing exists)
Stamina/Endurance (How long one can exert effort, and rate of recovery of stamina)

Mental (you can have this overlap with magic, or let magic be it's own thing)

Processing (Quantity of information that can be processed at once) (Affects useable spells, allows bigger spells to be cast easier, essentially increasing their power)
Intelligence/Acuity (Speed of thought/information processing, could mean agility doesn't affect reaction time) (Casting speed)
Focus (Attention to detail) (Precision of casting and minute control/modification of spells)
Willpower/Discipline (Ability to push through, be that exhaustion, pain, or mind-effects) (Maintain control of spells despite interference)
Wisdom (Retention of information and recall ability) (Mana pool/regen)

And then kinda sitting on it's own,

Perception (Kinda optional, Processing, Intelligence/Acuity, and Focus all can kinda combine and take the role, with special abilities for more esoteric types of perception)

There's a lot of inherent interplay in the human traits, especially physical. Strength doesn't mean speed, a fighter needs both because speed contributes to damage majorly as well (and to hit targets), pure strength might be something used by a common laborer. And if you have high speed, you'll need comparably high dexterity to maintain control over it, and probably Acuity at higher levels to be able to keep up with yourself. And the inverse, people with high acuity might find their minds moving faster than their bodies and seek agility for balance. Those with high strength need decent constitution or their strength can damage their own body with the strain.

A fighter will probably also want good focus to read their opponent, processing becomes more important against multiple opponents or in tough terrain, willpower to maintain focus despite wounds and/or exhaustion. Even wisdom, because that will help with learning faster.

Every stat is essential to a fighter in different ways. Spellcasters can get away with skimping on physical stats, but should probably have a decent Constitution and Vitality to endure their own magic, and Agility to keep out of fights. Laborers and farmers can skimp on mental stats, certain craftspeople might not need more than a certain level of strength, etc, specialty jobs can get away with skimping in some areas, but most people will probably want at least a bit in every stat.

Dexterity (Precision of movement, and flexiblity. Useful for heavily skill-based tasks, like sword fighting, dancing, playing instruments, crafting)

Focus (Attention to detail) (Precision of casting and minute control/modification of spells)

Thinking on it, it might make more sense to take Flexibility out of Dexterity and make it it's own thing, and similarly with Focus extract Adaptability or somesuch for adapting to new surprises and unfamiliar situations, as well as modifying spells or using them flexibly. Adaptability would then counterbalance focus to help against getting stuck in one mindset or focusing on one thing and not catching other things.

 

[Plantorsomething]

Context: a normal human body has to be somewhat balanced.

You can't have a good throwing arm without also having some legs and hips.

Same thing if you are a marathon sprinter, it is not all Dex no Str.

But it is over here that I am possibly bummed out.

What exactly are the stats that should be related to one another?

Should the Int stat even be related to any of the physical stats (Str, Dex, Con)? If yes, then Hawkings is a miracle and so is every Wizards in D&D.

Context: I gave myself a minimum ratio between the D&D stats of Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis and Cha.

For the physical stats, they shall not be too different from one another. That means if the stats must be at least half of the highest stat. If Str is ten, Dex and Con must at least be five.

Same thing with mental stats (Int, Wis). There is a ratio between the two.

Charisma is a stat of its own as it covers the physical aspect as well as mental (EQ).

The current issue I am struggling is to make sense if I should also balance between the physical and mental stats.

I tried figuring stuff like this out once and it was one of the main contributing factors to dropping multiple different stories. As difficult as it is, I highly recommend you stop thinking about it and go with the vibes. Numbers and physics beyond the basics or as flavor dressing don’t actually matter that much.