The hero Vs. demon lord trope.

[Jemini]

Just a thought I had after reading something over in the writing prompts that I thought I'd share.

A lot of classing liteRPG story lines have the trope of Hero Vs. Demon lord. And, in that sense, the hero and the demon lord are framed as being the 2 prominent powers in the story-line.

But, stop to think. What is a hero and what is a demon lord? The trope has become so tired they are just treated like arbitrary titles to give figures in a play. But, let's stop to think for a moment.

The hero is just some skilled and successful warrior fighting for the human side. Meanwhile, the demon lord is the king of the group of demons. So, in this sense, the demon lord's human counterpart is not the hero. The demon lord's counterpart is the human king. This being the case, why aren't there ever any demon heroes in these stories? Wouldn't that be an interesting take on the trope? Demon hero Vs. the human lord?

Yes, that would be an interesting subversion. But, if we want to ACTUALLY hold everything equal, the most accurate portrayal would be Demon hero Vs. Human hero.

 

[KiraMinoru]

Demon hero vs party of summoned heroes, done it already.
More specifically summoned hero gets boned by the king and joins the demon side to become demon lord only for his existence to trigger the need for more summoned heroes.

 

[Biggest-Kusa-Out-There]

You mean Tolkien's holy child? Or the catholic allegory of God vs Satan represented by helpless goodies facing unsurmountable evils? Or do you mean Alice in Wonderland with the evil queen and poor little Alice? The trope is thousands of years old, and it works like a charm because of what it represents.

If you mean Demon Heroes, look at the Four Heavenly Kings, Demon Generals, etc. Demon society is often portraid as meritocracy, so 'heroes' are often included in nobility/royalty/military because demons are not exactly dumb.
The Demon King is usually a puppet for higher Evils, like Sauron is the servant of Darkness, rather than Darkness itself. In the same way as the Hero is a servant to a King, because Monarchy finds its justification through God.

This trope is deeply set in politics. Allow me to elaborate.

Now, we can see this same vision in our very own history, which can also help in bringin catharsis when consumed as fiction since we tend to project. The Capitalist vs Communism is a very bastardized version of this Hero vs Demon Lord trope, and people referred to it in similar ways, David vs Goliath, Good vs Evil, etc.

It's no surprise, then, when we see evil characters with slavic accents, terrorists with middle eastern features, etc.

It's the same narrative, but in reality. For example, ISIS has no 'hero', but the west does... and that'd be the US army for some fucking reason. Isis has no concrete master, but the US army does, and that's the president. Here, "evil" is a masterless puppet that serves an abstract idea, and the "hero" is a very real and tangible group of people that has to very bravely /s go and face 3rd world countries with the strongest military power in the world.

Now, don't get me wrong. It's a horrible thing that someone would eventually do either way and the most prepared for it do it. All I'm saying is that this trope works so well because we can see it happen every twenty years or so on Earth.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

 

[KoyukiMegumi]

You mean Tolkien's holy child? Or the catholic allegory of God vs Satan represented by helpless goodies facing unsurmountable evils? Or do you mean Alice in Wonderland with the evil queen and poor little Alice? The trope is thousands of years old, and it works like a charm because of what it represents.

If you mean Demon Heroes, look at the Four Heavenly Kings, Demon Generals, etc. Demon society is often portraid as meritocracy, so 'heroes' are often included in nobility/royalty/military because demons are not exactly dumb.
The Demon King is usually a puppet for higher Evils, like Sauron is the servant of Darkness, rather than Darkness itself. In the same way as the Hero is a servant to a King, because Monarchy finds its justification through God.

This trope is deeply set in politics. Allow me to elaborate.

Now, we can see this same vision in our very own history, which can also help in bringin catharsis when consumed as fiction since we tend to project. The Capitalist vs Communism is a very bastardized version of this Hero vs Demon Lord trope, and people referred to it in similar ways, David vs Goliath, Good vs Evil, etc.

It's no surprise, then, when we see evil characters with slavic accents, terrorists with middle eastern features, etc.

It's the same narrative, but in reality. For example, ISIS has no 'hero', but the west does... and that'd be the US army for some fucking reason. Isis has no concrete master, but the US army does, and that's the president. Here, "evil" is a masterless puppet that serves an abstract idea, and the "hero" is a very real and tangible group of people that has to very bravely /s go and face 3rd world countries with the strongest military power in the world.

Now, don't get me wrong. It's a horrible thing that someone would eventually do either way and the most prepared for it do it. All I'm saying is that this trope works so well because we can see it happen every twenty years or so on Earth.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Every post i read from you is like a lecture. I always learn something new.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

There is a Japanese novel about Demon Hero vs Human hero. Though, both of them are isekaied humans.

As for the name of the trope. Didn't translation of the word 'maou' took part in this?

 

[ThrillingHuman]

You mean Tolkien's holy child? Or the catholic allegory of God vs Satan represented by helpless goodies facing unsurmountable evils? Or do you mean Alice in Wonderland with the evil queen and poor little Alice? The trope is thousands of years old, and it works like a charm because of what it represents.

If you mean Demon Heroes, look at the Four Heavenly Kings, Demon Generals, etc. Demon society is often portraid as meritocracy, so 'heroes' are often included in nobility/royalty/military because demons are not exactly dumb.
The Demon King is usually a puppet for higher Evils, like Sauron is the servant of Darkness, rather than Darkness itself. In the same way as the Hero is a servant to a King, because Monarchy finds its justification through God.

This trope is deeply set in politics. Allow me to elaborate.

Now, we can see this same vision in our very own history, which can also help in bringin catharsis when consumed as fiction since we tend to project. The Capitalist vs Communism is a very bastardized version of this Hero vs Demon Lord trope, and people referred to it in similar ways, David vs Goliath, Good vs Evil, etc.

It's no surprise, then, when we see evil characters with slavic accents, terrorists with middle eastern features, etc.

It's the same narrative, but in reality. For example, ISIS has no 'hero', but the west does... and that'd be the US army for some fucking reason. Isis has no concrete master, but the US army does, and that's the president. Here, "evil" is a masterless puppet that serves an abstract idea, and the "hero" is a very real and tangible group of people that has to very bravely /s go and face 3rd world countries with the strongest military power in the world.

Now, don't get me wrong. It's a horrible thing that someone would eventually do either way and the most prepared for it do it. All I'm saying is that this trope works so well because we can see it happen every twenty years or so on Earth.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Bruh I wasn't ready for an actually well-articulated and thought out argument pro the trope in a forum.
Now I wanna see a fantasy styled story about a US marine "hero" going against the Supreme Leader of the USSR, Joseph Stalin, "Demon Lord". With Stalin being an extremely overpowered mage, of course

 

[sereminar]

 

[Biggest-Kusa-Out-There]

Bruh I wasn't ready for an actually well-articulated and thought out argument pro the trope in a forum.
Now I wanna see a fantasy styled story about a US marine "hero" going against the Supreme Leader of the USSR, Joseph Stalin, "Demon Lord". With Stalin being an extremely overpowered mage, of course

How about a USSR soldier vs Hitler? Since that'd be more in line with actual history since the communist were the heroes that defeated that particular demon lord? Stalin had the Nazi army just outside moscow and he prevailed thanks to various factors. Every dictator naturally has a not so savory side, even in the west. Stalin never really had to be stopped at the level that Hitler did, so that'd require further suspension of disbelief than facing the nazis.
Comunism is not evil by default, nor is it a good system unless you're coming from a rule of a very inept Tzar. All this naturally can be justified in fiction, as the author's political opinion has a lot to do with the story and how it's portrayed.
You could even go with my country's example, the first ever country in human history to have an elected leader with marxist ideas through democracy instead of a violent revolution. Then comes Pinochet, either hero or evil lord coming to free the people from communism and commiting atrocities on both sides in the name of graeter good.
Politics is a sensitive topic because it's real instead of fiction when the setting is our world.

 

[Jemini]

There is a Japanese novel about Demon Hero vs Human hero. Though, both of them are isekaied humans.

As for the name of the trope. Didn't translation of the word 'maou' took part in this?

That's "ma-o." "Ma" is short for Majin, which literally translates to the English word "demon," and "o" is an honorific title ending that refers to a king. So, "ma-o" would literally mean "demon king."

(A fairly good example to give weight to this would actually be One Piece. Luffy's catch-phrase at the beginning of every episode. "I will become the pirate king." Or, the Japanese of that would be "Kaizoku-o ni, ore wa naru" (Pirate king is, I to become)(yeah, adverbs do not translate well from Japanese to English. That's why most translators take some liberty with them.))

So, your talk about linguistics kinda solidifies that "demon lord" is more properly translated as "demon king" and is very specifically referring to the "king" of the demons. An actual head of state rather than some kind of warrior. Thus, the point I brought up. The accurate equivalent human counter-part to the demon king is the human king, and the accurate demon counterpart to the human's hero would be a demon hero.

 

[JayDirex]

I JUST HAPPEN to be watching one of the Lord of the Rings movie while scrolling this thread. (The Hobbit, battle of the 5 armies) and what's fascinating is Tolkien's heros and villains certainly operate in a grey area. (except for the orcs, they are fairly one dimensional, and that's fine for the story's sake).

BUT SPEAKING OF ONE DIMENSION

Hero's vs Demons as a conflict (good vs evil) is easy for children (and simple minded fools) to digest. So it is ENTIRELY up to the author to provide a more interesting depth to the struggle on both sides.

1. Some authors are better than others at pulling it off.
2. Not every story requires it. Some folks just want to see the bad guy get a sword in the gut and the princess rescued.
3. The third group wants the other tropes provided by SH (Litrpg, isekai, smut, harem, beastkin, demon girls, etc)

 

[RepresentingWrath]

That's "ma-o." "Ma" is short for Majin, which literally translates to the English word "demon," and "o" is an honorific title ending that refers to a king. So, "ma-o" would literally mean "demon king."

(A fairly good example to give weight to this would actually be One Piece. Luffy's catch-phrase at the beginning of every episode. "I will become the pirate king." Or, the Japanese of that would be "Kaizoku-o ni, ore wa naru" (Pirate king is, I to become)(yeah, adverbs do not translate well from Japanese to English. That's why most translators take some liberty with them.))

So, your talk about linguistics might sound like you are trying to be insightful, but there really is no actual substance in such a statement. It is still hero Vs. demon king. In fact, bringing up the Japanese term only solidifies that "demon lord" is more properly translated as "demon king" and is very specifically referring to the "king" of the demons. An actual head of state rather than some kind of warrior. Thus, the point I brought up. The accurate equivalent human counter-part to the demon king is the human king, and the accurate demon counterpart to the human's hero would be a demon hero.

There is no substance only if you know the said linguistics. I don't know Japanese, at all. Thus it was an insightful conversation for me. Thank you for the explanation.

As for the demon king\lord itself, he isn't much of a king. Though, I'm not talking about every novel with such a tag. The usual trope in such stories is that demons are stronger than humans. And the way you gain power and control over demons is through strength. He isn't much of a king but rather a tribal chief. Demon lord fills two roles: he is the strongest fighter and a chief(king). While the king has a lot more stuff to do(mainly government work). For example, the politics in human kingdoms are much more intricate, so he can't fill the role of being the strongest. He can't train enough, he usually isn't blessed, etc. So, basically, how I see this is that a demon king is a two in one. Even the said heroes of demon races are usually weaker than the demon lord. While a human hero is an op and individually stronger than most if not every other human. Also, a hero usually isn't apt in politics and government. He solely fills the role of being a fighter.

 

[Vnator]

Pretty much as Biggest-Kusa-Out-There said, the trope of underdog vs larger person/group is really old and has been applied by many stories. But the Human Hero vs Demon Lord trope that's super popular in a lot of japanese fiction probably originates from the Ramayana, which is 1000s of years old and codified a lot of the major sub-tropes as well. It probably came to Japan from Buddhism which also originated in India, and they have their own version of the story as well.

But yeah, the idea of a story focusing on a Demon Hero rather than the full organization sounds like it would be interesting! From my limited knowledge of myths, I can't think of any that feature such a Demon Hero who does any fighting, only one who really just prays and tries to not get killed by an even bigger Demon Lord.

 

[Armored99]

There are many works that subvert this idea in a variety of ways. I'd actually say we're well past the repetition phase of the idea.

Creation -> repetition -> mutation -> critique -> deconstruction -> scattering
First it's made.
Next it's repeated by others.
Then variations are created to try and retain originality. -> subversion will start happening past this point.
Eventually it reaches critical mass and faces introspection.
It's then dismantled as the parts are tried to be repurposed.
Finally whats left is picked up by scavengers and reincorporated every so often.
The cycle will likely at some point repeat, after the idea has disappeared for long enough.

Of course this is my perspective on it.