Tank Main Characters/Talking about the lack of tank & healer aligned mc's

Cauldrons

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 2, 2019
Messages
59
Points
58
Does anyone know any good stories where the main role/theme of the mc is to be a damage sponge/unkillable bastard? Getting Hard is already on my watchlist (Not read yet though) but that's the only story I can think of that matches what I'm looking for. P.S. Designated Healer on Royal Road is a decent healer centric story. (But once again the only one I can think of.)

I've always found it a little weird that you just don't see mc's who's main occupation isn't stab monster/enemy with sharp metal stick. Talking about these stories with the framework that their based on rpg's since most/a lot include dungeons, levels, classes, and roles you can't deny they influenced them heavily so to see a whole two thirds of the classic roles just be totally ignored seems a little strange to me. I can only assume it's a combination of several factors like tank/healer being a lot more challenging to play/write about, so people just borrowing the rpg framework just want to borrow the easiest of the three to draw from. (Not to insult dps but they can make a lot more mistakes without it being noticed.) Maybe it's the fact that people seems to have the view to tanks and healers are dependent on dps to function. What I do know however is that the rpg genre isn't reaching it's full potential with just dps main characters.
 

Iamnotabot

marchioness of the Enpire
Joined
Jun 1, 2022
Messages
841
Points
133
Maybe can write one, through it's a fanfic more than rpg. Mc isekai as a priest in a gender role reverse world.
It just a few concept here and there nothing much.
 

Le_ther

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 21, 2022
Messages
302
Points
103
Does anyone know any good stories where the main role/theme of the mc is to be a damage sponge/unkillable bastard? Getting Hard is already on my watchlist (Not read yet though) but that's the only story I can think of that matches what I'm looking for. P.S. Designated Healer on Royal Road is a decent healer centric story. (But once again the only one I can think of.)

I've always found it a little weird that you just don't see mc's who's main occupation isn't stab monster/enemy with sharp metal stick. Talking about these stories with the framework that their based on rpg's since most/a lot include dungeons, levels, classes, and roles you can't deny they influenced them heavily so to see a whole two thirds of the classic roles just be totally ignored seems a little strange to me. I can only assume it's a combination of several factors like tank/healer being a lot more challenging to play/write about, so people just borrowing the rpg framework just want to borrow the easiest of the three to draw from. (Not to insult dps but they can make a lot more mistakes without it being noticed.) Maybe it's the fact that people seems to have the view to tanks and healers are dependent on dps to function. What I do know however is that the rpg genre isn't reaching it's full potential with just dps main characters.
Bofuri, rising of the L(shield) hero and wrong way to use healing magic.
 

melchi

What is a custom title?
Joined
May 2, 2021
Messages
2,895
Points
153

Good old Azarinth healer is a decent read too.

In dragoneye moons the MC is a healer too.
 

Sabruness

Cultured Yuri Connoisseur
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
940
Points
133
someone already mentioned BOFURI but im'a mention it again because it's fun and great feels to read.
 

TheEldritchGod

A Cloud Of Pure Spite And Eyes
Joined
Dec 15, 2021
Messages
3,446
Points
183
I've always found it a little weird that you just don't see mc's who's main occupation isn't stab monster/enemy with sharp metal stick.
Because from a meta perspective, Healers suck and Tanks are Boring. Take D&D, 3rd.

Mathematically, healing in combat is bad. It’s part of the whole conservation of action thing. You can only do so many things in a round. If you spend your action healing, you need to heal more damage then the enemy inflicts to make it worth your time and effort. In hand to hand combat, where your enemy is using full round actions to attack, damage will outpace healing.

This is not a video game. Healing in combat is a last resort, or something you do when you can’t do anything else. Heal and mass heal are good, because they often outpace the damage you take in a round, plus mass heal can do damage against undead. Stick to using cure light wounds or lesser vigor in a wand to heal outside of combat. Gold to hit point healed cost ratio proves that a lesser vigor wand is the best for healing, if you have a few minutes to heal.

That said, sometimes you have a few rounds. Make sure to keep one or two healing potions that are as powerful as you can afford in your equipment list. Maybe the enemy will retreat for a few rounds to come at you from another direction. That’s when using your actions to heal is important, and you might not have 40 rounds to do it in.

At-will healing, like regeneration, sounds nice, but in play isn’t that useful, unless you are in a gauntlet. What that means is, instead of the typical 3 combats a day, you are not going to have a chance to rest and heal. There will be no spell recovery, and the only thing you can do is push on or fail. Then unlimited healing is nice. Otherwise, one ring of regeneration can buy a dozen wands of lesser vigor and the wand will occupy much less of your WBL.

There is one exception. If your allies have been debilitated, and healing them returns them to combat ready status, do it. This covers poison, paralyzing, being 0 to -9 hit points, weird diseases, and anything else that renders your allies from being effective. Bringing an ally back to fighting trim is worth taking the time to heal, because it acts as a force multiplier and increases the over all effectiveness of your side.

I bring this up, because Most RPGs follow the D&D format. Death is typically Binary as far as HP are concerned.

Which is more dangerous to you when you lose initiative? A level 10 fighter with one hit point, or a level 10 fighter with 100 hit points? Trick question, they are equally dangerous.

It takes a while to sink in, but D&D (and most RPGs) have a binary nature to it when it comes to hit points. You are just as dangerous with one hit point as with a hundred. Once you reach zero, you drop, but until then you suffer no ill effects. So a fireball that wounds a group of goblins is only useful in setting up a group of targets for a fighter with mighty cleave to go to town. It is far better to focus damage on one target, move to the next, then the next.

Another example, if you have a magic missile that will do 5 points of damage and you have a wounded target that is almost dead with one hit point left, and a target that has ten hit points, which one would you attack?

Well, in the real world, it would seem like the almost dead target would waste 4 points of damage, but in D&D, dropping a target this round means one less enemy to attack you next round. Better to over kill the wounded, then to leave two targets up to fight you next round.

As for tanks, well, depends on the setting. You see, Video games have set rules and thinking outside the box isn't really an option. IT IS DEFINED BY THE BOX, but a story/manga is more like a table top RP session, and therefore, tanks suck.

In most video games, Wading through a hail of arrows, laughing as you shake shrapnel out of your beard. Sounds fun. But in D&D, when you get to a level where you can do that, the enemy is using far more save-or-suck attacks. Furthermore, if the enemy is ineffective against you, your allies aren’t tanks. So they will just switch targets and pick them off one at a time, saving you for last. Most Stories/Manga get around this by allowing Taunt/Draw Aggro Spells, but honestly, yer a one trick pony.

Being a damage sponge isn’t good in a game where whittling your enemies down has no effect until the last hit point. Again, the binary nature of hit points makes this sort of build less than optimal. That said, they can be fun, just understand what you are getting into.

From a WRITING perspective, it's dull as shit. When you play a lot of videogames, it's simple: You win when everything else is dead.

When you table top, or by extension, write a story, Damage isn't everything. A barbarian who deals 1 million damage with a great-axe is useless against enemies who can fly. A charm person spell can defeat an enemy instantly, and is useful outside combat too. Hindering or weakening your enemies makes them easier to kill. Spellcasters have far more options than direct damage, while non-casters have a harder time attaining them.

You see, non-casters are usually stuck with different ways to inflict damage and that’s about it. Whereas a caster often have a number of save-or-suck attacks at their disposal. The over all goal is basically to render your enemies unable to fight, not to kill them. Hold person works just as well as 400 hit points of damage.

Winning is not about dead bodies at your feet. It’s about crippling your enemies so you can kill them, or capture them, or whatever you wish to do. By the binary nature of D&D’s hit point system, a paralyzed NPC is the same as a dead NPC is the same as a nauseated/entangled NPC. If the NPC can’t do anything, it’s the same as winning.

So, for having a spellcaster who can DO all these alternate ways to defeating an enemy, it's interesting. How many stories can I write about

Bob The Barbarian stood there, acted annoying to draw aggro, and sucked up damage... again.
And
Jill The Healer cast Mass Cure Moderate Wounds... again.
Or...
Mystic Ranger/Erudite/Archivist/Eldolonancer who is Major Bloodline titan, moderate bloodline gold dragon, minor bloodline doppleganger. because I can be casting 4th level spells and 3rd level psionics as a 4th level character, when I should, at best, only be casting 1st level ANYTHING. Yeah, OP as hell and an abuse of the rules concerning character creation to a degree where most DMs would look at this monstrosity and say, "Uhh... You realize you had to die and be RESURRECTED at least ONCE for this insane combo to work, right?"

So who do you wanna read about more?
The Character created by a power gaming munchkin, or the adventures of Bob and Jill, The Damage Sponges?
 

melchi

What is a custom title?
Joined
May 2, 2021
Messages
2,895
Points
153
Because from a meta perspective, Healers suck and Tanks are Boring. Take D&D, 3rd.

Mathematically, healing in combat is bad. It’s part of the whole conservation of action thing. You can only do so many things in a round. If you spend your action healing, you need to heal more damage then the enemy inflicts to make it worth your time and effort. In hand to hand combat, where your enemy is using full round actions to attack, damage will outpace healing.

This is not a video game. Healing in combat is a last resort, or something you do when you can’t do anything else. Heal and mass heal are good, because they often outpace the damage you take in a round, plus mass heal can do damage against undead. Stick to using cure light wounds or lesser vigor in a wand to heal outside of combat. Gold to hit point healed cost ratio proves that a lesser vigor wand is the best for healing, if you have a few minutes to heal.

That said, sometimes you have a few rounds. Make sure to keep one or two healing potions that are as powerful as you can afford in your equipment list. Maybe the enemy will retreat for a few rounds to come at you from another direction. That’s when using your actions to heal is important, and you might not have 40 rounds to do it in.

At-will healing, like regeneration, sounds nice, but in play isn’t that useful, unless you are in a gauntlet. What that means is, instead of the typical 3 combats a day, you are not going to have a chance to rest and heal. There will be no spell recovery, and the only thing you can do is push on or fail. Then unlimited healing is nice. Otherwise, one ring of regeneration can buy a dozen wands of lesser vigor and the wand will occupy much less of your WBL.

There is one exception. If your allies have been debilitated, and healing them returns them to combat ready status, do it. This covers poison, paralyzing, being 0 to -9 hit points, weird diseases, and anything else that renders your allies from being effective. Bringing an ally back to fighting trim is worth taking the time to heal, because it acts as a force multiplier and increases the over all effectiveness of your side.

I bring this up, because Most RPGs follow the D&D format. Death is typically Binary as far as HP are concerned.

Which is more dangerous to you when you lose initiative? A level 10 fighter with one hit point, or a level 10 fighter with 100 hit points? Trick question, they are equally dangerous.

It takes a while to sink in, but D&D (and most RPGs) have a binary nature to it when it comes to hit points. You are just as dangerous with one hit point as with a hundred. Once you reach zero, you drop, but until then you suffer no ill effects. So a fireball that wounds a group of goblins is only useful in setting up a group of targets for a fighter with mighty cleave to go to town. It is far better to focus damage on one target, move to the next, then the next.

Another example, if you have a magic missile that will do 5 points of damage and you have a wounded target that is almost dead with one hit point left, and a target that has ten hit points, which one would you attack?

Well, in the real world, it would seem like the almost dead target would waste 4 points of damage, but in D&D, dropping a target this round means one less enemy to attack you next round. Better to over kill the wounded, then to leave two targets up to fight you next round.

As for tanks, well, depends on the setting. You see, Video games have set rules and thinking outside the box isn't really an option. IT IS DEFINED BY THE BOX, but a story/manga is more like a table top RP session, and therefore, tanks suck.

In most video games, Wading through a hail of arrows, laughing as you shake shrapnel out of your beard. Sounds fun. But in D&D, when you get to a level where you can do that, the enemy is using far more save-or-suck attacks. Furthermore, if the enemy is ineffective against you, your allies aren’t tanks. So they will just switch targets and pick them off one at a time, saving you for last. Most Stories/Manga get around this by allowing Taunt/Draw Aggro Spells, but honestly, yer a one trick pony.

Being a damage sponge isn’t good in a game where whittling your enemies down has no effect until the last hit point. Again, the binary nature of hit points makes this sort of build less than optimal. That said, they can be fun, just understand what you are getting into.

From a WRITING perspective, it's dull as shit. When you play a lot of videogames, it's simple: You win when everything else is dead.

When you table top, or by extension, write a story, Damage isn't everything. A barbarian who deals 1 million damage with a great-axe is useless against enemies who can fly. A charm person spell can defeat an enemy instantly, and is useful outside combat too. Hindering or weakening your enemies makes them easier to kill. Spellcasters have far more options than direct damage, while non-casters have a harder time attaining them.

You see, non-casters are usually stuck with different ways to inflict damage and that’s about it. Whereas a caster often have a number of save-or-suck attacks at their disposal. The over all goal is basically to render your enemies unable to fight, not to kill them. Hold person works just as well as 400 hit points of damage.

Winning is not about dead bodies at your feet. It’s about crippling your enemies so you can kill them, or capture them, or whatever you wish to do. By the binary nature of D&D’s hit point system, a paralyzed NPC is the same as a dead NPC is the same as a nauseated/entangled NPC. If the NPC can’t do anything, it’s the same as winning.

So, for having a spellcaster who can DO all these alternate ways to defeating an enemy, it's interesting. How many stories can I write about

Bob The Barbarian stood there, acted annoying to draw aggro, and sucked up damage... again.
And
Jill The Healer cast Mass Cure Moderate Wounds... again.
Or...
Mystic Ranger/Erudite/Archivist/Eldolonancer who is Major Bloodline titan, moderate bloodline gold dragon, minor bloodline doppleganger. because I can be casting 4th level spells and 3rd level psionics as a 4th level character, when I should, at best, only be casting 1st level ANYTHING. Yeah, OP as hell and an abuse of the rules concerning character creation to a degree where most DMs would look at this monstrosity and say, "Uhh... You realize you had to die and be RESURRECTED at least ONCE for this insane combo to work, right?"

So who do you wanna read about more?
The Character created by a power gaming munchkin, or the adventures of Bob and Jill, The Damage Sponges?
Even in MMOs using global cooldowns to heal because someone took damage they could ignore is also a DPS loss. Healers get pissed if they have to adjust for others mistakes because "MY DEEPS!" Also, like Bofuri that is a video game world so the mechanics are very gamey.

I get that making a tank MC though is hard to be creative with. Maple can one shot anyone that attacks her but her speed is nothing. Though to be fair later on her abilities don't seem all that tank-like. I imagine that if someone wanted to have a tank MC than they'd really have to brainstorm a lot to find stuff that fits the tank theme of a power set after a while.
 

LilRora

Mostly formless
Joined
Mar 27, 2022
Messages
1,349
Points
153
One massive problem with tanks and healers is that it's really hard to be creative with them.

If it's about attacking, you have a massive number of possiblities how to attack, even without going into magic - just exploring martial arts and weapons gives very large versatility. When you do use magic, it's practically infinite. Creating an original system of magic, or original attacks in general can be really hard, but just borriwing ideas from other fictions is easy enough, and you won't ever truly exhaust your possibilities.

Now, the problem with healers is that while you have similarly many ways of healing something, it's doesn't change the result. You can have holy magic, light magic, biomancy, wood magic, blood magic, time magic, and they can all heal conceptually, but that's all it is. It's healing - regenerating wounds, regrowing lost body parts, not exploding eyeballs, draining people of blood, severing time and space, or hitting them hard enough they go splat in a captivating explosion.

It isn't smiting your enemies with divine might, it isn't using beams of light to carve through hordes, it isn't inventing new diseases to rot yet bigger enemy, it isn't creating wooden mazes and traps, it isn't making weapons out of blood, it isn't jumping across time to hit your enemy from blind spots - it's healing, and no matter how creative new way of healing you come up with, for example sucking vitality out of other people and afflicting them with disease as a result, it's in the end the same damn healing.

The same problem is with tanks. Not as pronounced as it is with healers, but it's still there, unless you count a barrier mage or something similar as a tank as well.

One way to mitigate this problem is to conceptualize the ideas, just like in the example above with vitality being a pure concept without a tangible representation, but it can't solve the fundamental problem with the fact it's still healing, and at some point the twist starts being the interesting thing, not healing itself.



One story I know that takes the concept of health and disease in a really interesting way is Nowhere Stars on RR, but it's not healing, at least not in the way it's generally understood when talking about fanstasy classes.

As for being an unkillable bastard, I remember The Only Necromancer, a manga (I've read on Manganato, but it will probably in other places as well) in which the protagonist isn't a tank in any way, but there's that guy with a heavily conceptual ability who turns into an unkillable chad whenever ke kills an enemy. Good for laughs, though not good if you want to read about a tank specifically.
 
Last edited:

BearlyAlive

I'm not savage, you're just average
Joined
Oct 13, 2021
Messages
1,982
Points
153
It's easier to write direct action and MC being "active" than letting others be in the spotlight or delegating MC to a "mere" leader that does "nothing", A.k.a. writers being hacks that don't know how hard decision making can be under pressure.

But a current trend seems to be "my totally useless non-dps Job is actually the strongest because PLOT and everyone being stupid" where obviously OP classes get demoted for reasons too stupid to even think about.

There're currently more healers and tanks than purely non-magic dps MCs, tho.
 
D

Deleted member 68927

Guest
Does anyone know any good stories where the main role/theme of the mc is to be a damage sponge/unkillable bastard? Getting Hard is already on my watchlist (Not read yet though) but that's the only story I can think of that matches what I'm looking for. P.S. Designated Healer on Royal Road is a decent healer centric story. (But once again the only one I can think of.)

I've always found it a little weird that you just don't see mc's who's main occupation isn't stab monster/enemy with sharp metal stick. Talking about these stories with the framework that their based on rpg's since most/a lot include dungeons, levels, classes, and roles you can't deny they influenced them heavily so to see a whole two thirds of the classic roles just be totally ignored seems a little strange to me. I can only assume it's a combination of several factors like tank/healer being a lot more challenging to play/write about, so people just borrowing the rpg framework just want to borrow the easiest of the three to draw from. (Not to insult dps but they can make a lot more mistakes without it being noticed.) Maybe it's the fact that people seems to have the view to tanks and healers are dependent on dps to function. What I do know however is that the rpg genre isn't reaching it's full potential with just dps main characters.
If you are not squeamish about BL, you can check out Anti-cake Dungeon Delving. The MC, Leander, is a healer. You can find it in my signature. Then there is An Explorer's Guide, but that is one of my earlier books, and not all that polished. I wish I could give you a straight recommendation, but I write BL. Plus, I haven't seen many healer books on here.
You can always try the tag: Healers.
 
Top