Mixed tenses in Japanese novels

[BlackKnightX]

You know, in Japanese light novels, especially written in 1st person POV, there are a lot of mixed tenses between past tense and present tense?

If you‘ve ever read the writing advices from everywhere on the internet or the books about writing, you’ll find the strict rule about sticking to only one tense.

It usually goes like, “You have to choose your tense first and then stick to it.” But when I read Japanese light novels or even some web novels on this site, there are a lot of mixed tenses in it.

Though, here’s my opinion. When writing in 1st person POV, most writer will use past tense as a narrative voice and use present tense as an inner-monologue to comment on the plot or contemplate things momentarily. So it feels more like the character is directly talking to the readers. (Like in So I'm a Spider, So What?, it feels like a stream of consciousness.)

In most English novels, writer will use italics as the indication of inner monologue, which Japanese light novels don’t. And sometime, I even saw a mixed tenses in the same sentence of the narrative lines.

So my question is; Are those mixed tenses just the bad translation or maybe it just follows Japanese’s gramma? Is it fine to just write in mixed tenses like that? Does the readers feel frustrated when reading it?

 

[RepresentingWrath]

You know, in Japanese light novels, especially written in 1st person POV, there were a lot of mixed tenses between past tense and present tense?

If you‘ve ever read the writing advices from everywhere on the internet or the books about writing, you’ll find the strict rule about sticking to only one tense.

It usually goes like, “You have to choose your tense first and then stick to it.” But when I read Japanese light novels or even some web novels on this site, there are a lot of mixed tenses in it.

Though, here’s my opinion. When writing in 1st person POV, most writer will use past tense as a narrative voice and use present tense as an inner-monologue to comment on the plot or contemplate things momentarily. So it feels more like the character is directly talking to the readers. (Like in So I'm a Spider, So What?, it feels like a stream of consciousness.)

In most English novels, writer will use italics as the indication of inner monologue, which Japanese light novels don’t. And sometime, I even saw a mixed tenses in the same sentence of the narrative lines.

So my question is; Are those mixed tenses just the bad translation or maybe it just follows Japanese’s gramma? Is it fine to just write in mixed tenses like that? Does the readers feel frustrated when reading it?

I don't know Japanese, but I think it's both: translation and Japanese grammar. An example, someone said on this forums that the Japanese don't use quotation marks or something like this. I'm not sure. @Jemini enlightened me about the term maou, so perhaps he(she?) can help you.

 

[KoyukiMegumi]

You know, in Japanese light novels, especially written in 1st person POV, there were a lot of mixed tenses between past tense and present tense?

If you‘ve ever read the writing advices from everywhere on the internet or the books about writing, you’ll find the strict rule about sticking to only one tense.

It usually goes like, “You have to choose your tense first and then stick to it.” But when I read Japanese light novels or even some web novels on this site, there are a lot of mixed tenses in it.

Though, here’s my opinion. When writing in 1st person POV, most writer will use past tense as a narrative voice and use present tense as an inner-monologue to comment on the plot or contemplate things momentarily. So it feels more like the character is directly talking to the readers. (Like in So I'm a Spider, So What?, it feels like a stream of consciousness.)

In most English novels, writer will use italics as the indication of inner monologue, which Japanese light novels don’t. And sometime, I even saw a mixed tenses in the same sentence of the narrative lines.

So my question is; Are those mixed tenses just the bad translation or maybe it just follows Japanese’s gramma? Is it fine to just write in mixed tenses like that? Does the readers feel frustrated when reading it?

Uh, I don't know about translations but the only times you should break tenses it is in inner thought (italics), and dialogue ("). Inner thoughts as what the character is thinking in the moment. Otherwise stick to tense. I write FPV and stick to my tenses unless the two above. Do one or two mistakes slip? Yep, but I usually catch them. Yet, again I am not perfect.

 

[RepresentingCaution]

I say it's bad translation. Ideally translators should translate into their native language rather than trying to do things the other way around.

 

[Snusmumriken]

It all depends on how you write the monologue. if it is written in a separate form as a normal dialogue would - yes you can use the present tense. Otherwise, your narration tense should stay the same. because it is less about the temporal relationships between clauses - both past and present can do them. It is about the overall feeling of your novel. And if you change that - your entire story would feel disjointed and outright wrong.

 

[OokamiKasumi]

So my question is; Are those mixed tenses just the bad translation or maybe it just follows Japanese’s gramma? Is it fine to just write in mixed tenses like that? Does the readers feel frustrated when reading it?

If this is in a published book...?
-- This is likely caused by two major problems.

-- Problem One: The English translator is trying to keep the translation as close to the original wording as possible, and Japanese sentence structure and grammar conventions do not mesh well with English grammar. (Because it really, really doesn't.)

-- Problem Two: The editor for the work doesn't realize that the grammar conventions for fiction ARE NOT not the Same as the grammar conventions used in reports, essays, and thesis writing, (the grammar style we are taught in school.) Because of this, they don't realize that the tense shifting in the story is actually a problem that needs to be fixed.

If this is in a fan-translated work?
-- See problem One.

As for Internal Dialogue...
-- Direct thoughts in English fiction ARE supposed to be written in Present Tense and Italicized -- without quotation marks. (Only telepathy is italicized with quotation marks.) However, too many writers simply do not know that direct internal dialogue is supposed to be italicized. Mainly because no one took the time to tell them.

 

[BlackKnightX]

Uh, I don't know about translations but the only times you should break tenses it is in inner thought (italics), and dialogue ("). Inner thoughts as what the character is thinking in the moment. Otherwise stick to tense. I write FPV and stick to my tenses unless the two above. Do one or two mistakes slip? Yep, but I usually catch them. Yet, again I am not perfect.

Is it fine to just write an inner monologue without italics? Like when the character contemplate a battle strategy or something, it could end up being an entire page of italics and makes it feel kind of weird?

 

[Biggest-Kusa-Out-There]

Is it fine to just write an inner monologue without italics? Like when the character contemplate a battle strategy or something, it could end up being an entire page of italics and makes it feel kind of weird?

you could go the 'mc thought about going to the toilet', so you may avoid using italics. And walls of italics don't really bother people, it's not hard to read by default if you have a few paragraphs. People are thinking long and hard, how else would you communicate that without summarizing?

 

[KoyukiMegumi]

Is it fine to just write an inner monologue without italics? Like when the character contemplate a battle strategy or something, it could end up being an entire page of italics and makes it feel kind of weird?

Okay, so you are going more like narration? Because what I mean is if it is the thought of the moment like...

This is just an example of my writing. But if it is a narration of what he is planning, don't do italics. If it is the character going over his own plans like a rant, I think it should be if it is inner thoughts.

Spoiler: Spoiler

I hugged him tighter.

I love you so much. That is why… I want to yell it for you, but… But… Surely, you will find it weird. We just met, but to me… I have known you for much longer. Or at least it feels like it.

“I will always come to you. That I swear.” I promised.

He seemed surprised yet again by my answer.

“You are the first person to tell me that,” He noted.

I snuggled myself into his chest, reveling in this victory. At least I took one of his first. Two first, actually. His fur was so soft and comfortable. I cackled a bit. It almost felt like I had gotten drunk out of my emotions.

Will he be angry if I sleep on him?

This is just an example, though not to what you have. But recently I did a whole thought process, and only parts were in italics, like the moments the character goes.

Okay, this is the way.

Then you carry on in your tense of choice. It all depends on what you want, though. You can also use them for 4th wall break.

 

[LostLibrarian]

Is it fine to just write an inner monologue without italics? Like when the character contemplate a battle strategy or something, it could end up being an entire page of italics and makes it feel kind of weird?

You can do that when you write a certain style in first person POV. There you can actually just use style to make clear that those are his thoughts and switch to present tense monologue without italics.

For third person POV, it is a lot harder. Still possible, if you focus on one character only, but it kinda breaks the POV and immersion. For that, it is often better, to just reiterate the main points of what he is thinking as description. (He knew the upcoming battle would be a hardfought one. He had spotted a few X on the battlefield, who would threaten their usual tactic of Y. Maybe it was time to Z.)

 

[OokamiKasumi]

Is it fine to just write an inner monologue without italics?

NO.

Like when the character contemplate a battle strategy or something, it could end up being an entire page of italics and makes it feel kind of weird?

If you have a wall of dialogue, internal or external, break all that text up with Actions and Descriptions, or even just body language.

Example:

He scratched his butt. That demon lord is really starting to get in the way of my vacation. He spat to the side. I should probably do something about that.

 

[BlackKnightX]

Okay, so you are going more like narration? Because what I mean is if it is the thought of the moment like...

This is just an example of my writing. But if it is a narration of what he is planning, don't do italics. If it is the character going over his own plans like a rant, I think it should be if it is inner thoughts.

Spoiler: Spoiler

I hugged him tighter.

I love you so much. That is why… I want to yell it for you, but… But… Surely, you will find it weird. We just met, but to me… I have known you for much longer. Or at least it feels like it.

“I will always come to you. That I swear.” I promised.

He seemed surprised yet again by my answer.

“You are the first person to tell me that,” He noted.

I snuggled myself into his chest, reveling in this victory. At least I took one of his first. Two first, actually. His fur was so soft and comfortable. I cackled a bit. It almost felt like I had gotten drunk out of my emotions.

Will he be angry if I sleep on him?

This is just an example, though not to what you have. But recently I did a whole thought process, and only parts were in italics, like the moments the character goes.

Okay, this is the way.

Then you carry on in your tense of choice. It all depends on what you want, though. You can also use them for 4th wall break.

Have you ever read So I'm a Spider, So What?? The entire chapter is just the mc’s inner monologue. It gives off the feeling of the stream of consciousness.

And if you watch the anime adaption, you’ll understand what I mean. It’s all inner monologues, and they portray it by using the voice narration in the anime.

 

[KoyukiMegumi]

Have you ever read So I'm a Spider, So What?? The entire chapter is just the mc’s inner monologue. It gives off the feeling of the stream of consciousness.

And if you watch the anime adaption, you’ll understand what I mean. It’s all inner monologues, and they portray it by using the voice narration in the anime.

I have seen it in bits but have not read the material. But if that is what you mean the the whole part has to be in italics as it is a inner monologue the whole time. No one else hears her but her.
You can always do breaks in the inner dialogue though like how they are doing like Okami did in their post.

If it is inner then italics. If it is narration of the plans then normal.

 

[SakeVision]

It was always obvious to me that actions should be written in past tense, but thoughts in present tense (I mostly write in 3rd person tho)
Example:

"She threw a grenade and rolled under cover. However...this can't be? The grenade didn't explode!"

But people were pointing this out as mistake, so I write everything in past tense now. The last thing I need is some tolkien- sanderson -fuckson chocking moron downrating my novel because he never saw anything quite like it.

 

[greyblob]

"She threw a grenade and rolled under cover. However...this can't be? The grenade didn't explode!"

This looks and feels wrong to me.

You know, in Japanese light novels, especially written in 1st person POV, there are a lot of mixed tenses between past tense and present tense?

If you‘ve ever read the writing advices from everywhere on the internet or the books about writing, you’ll find the strict rule about sticking to only one tense.

It usually goes like, “You have to choose your tense first and then stick to it.” But when I read Japanese light novels or even some web novels on this site, there are a lot of mixed tenses in it.

Though, here’s my opinion. When writing in 1st person POV, most writer will use past tense as a narrative voice and use present tense as an inner-monologue to comment on the plot or contemplate things momentarily. So it feels more like the character is directly talking to the readers. (Like in So I'm a Spider, So What?, it feels like a stream of consciousness.)

In most English novels, writer will use italics as the indication of inner monologue, which Japanese light novels don’t. And sometime, I even saw a mixed tenses in the same sentence of the narrative lines.

So my question is; Are those mixed tenses just the bad translation or maybe it just follows Japanese’s gramma? Is it fine to just write in mixed tenses like that? Does the readers feel frustrated when reading it?

I'm not a fan of inner monologues, or at least when used excessively. Also, most of the times I have seen it used was as a crutch.

 

[BlackKnightX]

It was always obvious to me that actions should be written in past tense, but thoughts in present tense (I mostly write in 3rd person tho)
Example:

"She threw a grenade and rolled under cover. However...this can't be? The grenade didn't explode!"

But people were pointing this out as mistake, so I write everything in past tense now. The last thing I need is some tolkien- sanderson -fuckson chocking moron downrating my novel because he never saw anything quite like it.

I also mostly write in third person. It‘s easier to keep things in past tense when writing in thrid person.

But in first person, there’re gonna be some lines that feel more natural in a present tense rather than in past tense. So I’m kind of confused as to what to do. Should I stick to the past tense and leave it feeling usually like that, or should I write it i present tense instead?

 

[Snusmumriken]

why dont you provide an example? but usually you should err on same tense

 

[LostLibrarian]

It was always obvious to me that actions should be written in past tense, but thoughts in present tense (I mostly write in 3rd person tho)

The problem with your example (and why people call it a mistake) is that the thoughts of the character and the action don't have a clear seperation. It makes reading it really hard, which is why there are the usual conventions about how to display it.

For your example:
"She threw a grenade and rolled under cover. However...this can't be? The grenade didn't explode!"
The red part is obvious action.
The yellow part is thought. But it is bundled together with "However" which is clearly not part of the thought (or the thought sounds really off). It feels like part of the narrator's voice. So the entire sentence becomes a mess.
The orange part could be both: either action description or a thought of the character.

So this is only one sentence, but it's already a problem reading through it, because it just isn't clear what is what. If you use italics, tags, or even simple paragraphs, it should make things a lot easier for readers.

She threw a grenade and rolled under cover. However...
What? This can't be? The grenade didn't explode!

She threw a grenade and rolled under cover.
What? This can't be? Such thoughts dominated her mind. The grenade didn't explode.

She threw a grenade and rolled under cover.
What? This can't be?
The grenade didn't explode.

Both are more or less the same words used. Which aren't really wrong if you just think about pure tense/grammar. But it makes reading really, really hard and people will see such stuff and feel like it should be wrong.


Thoughts and speech have the same rules in that regard. If your reader has to stop to understand who is thinking/speaking, you are doing it wrong. And your example sentence would drag me out of any immersion, because it doesn't flow. Nothing that would make me drop a book in itself, nothing that would make me leave a bad rating or comment, but if I feel like this 10 times a chapter, maybe even breaking the action, it becomes a problem...

 

[BlackKnightX]

This looks and feels wrong to me.


I'm not a fan of inner monologues, or at least when used excessively. Also, most of the times I have seen it used was as a crutch.

I think it’s the matter of POV. I always have the feeling to explore the character thought when writing in the first person. But in the third person, I don’t have such feeling.

 

[Jemini]

I don't know Japanese, but I think it's both: translation and Japanese grammar. An example, someone said on this forums that the Japanese don't use quotation marks or something like this. I'm not sure. @Jemini enlightened me about the term maou, so perhaps he(she?) can help you.

I'm not really good enough with Japanese to read the language. Speaking Japanese and reading Japanese are two different creatures entirely, it is literally the #1 most complex written language in the entire world. (They literally have kanji tests to verify whether or not a person knows how to read and write kanji at various levels. These tests are meant for adults, not school children. There are 12 levels, and the overwhelming majority of the population has trouble passing level 2. (A fair number have trouble passing level 1.))

I have glanced at some stuff in the original Japanese though. I have seen square brackets used in various places in manners that seemed to suggest a similar function to quotation marks, but I did not see them in all cases. It's hard for me to say much on the subject. I would suggest asking someone who knows better than I do.