Humanizing Monsters

[Cauldrons]

The idea about making monsters in stories civilized in nowhere near an original idea, but I don't think I've seen very many stories that do it well. The 'monsters' in fictional worlds usually are either just inherently evil or it's a story where humans are worse than the monsters. Take goblins for example in most media they're the cannon fodder of cannon fodder not even worth looking at (except maybe in goblin slayer, but that doesn't paint them in a flattering light) so the only role they serve is to hang around primitive huts and be hunted by adventurers in stories. Recently though I've found myself thinking about it, if you really stretch your imagination then you could possibly draw parallels between them and how early settlers looked at Native Americans (They were often looked down upon as savages). Now I'm not trying to demonize either early settlers or Native Americans but the fact of the matter was despite neutral or even the good relationships between the two groups the settlers kept expanding and pushing Native Americans further back. I think I similar dynamic could work wonderfully in a story, between monsters and humans. Where neither group could be point blankly be called evil and the reader would have hard time choosing who they thought was in the right.

One idea I had was building on the idea of why goblins continued to live in huts with primitive tools when compared to other races like humans and often times other demons. What if a story went into detail about how every time goblins built anything bigger than a tent they were hunted down making all their progress for naught. Leaving no room for anything other than survival no possibility of innovation for them. Mind you I still think the 'civilized' races would have good reason to hunt them down either for past grievances and hostile relations, or opposing clashing beliefs.

Though to be honest I don't know how I would want such a story to go. Since despite me writing all that I did above I don't think such an issue should be the center piece of a novel, but rather a background to enrich and support the story. Thinking about it I suppose it wouldn't matter to me as long as it does it's story telling well, but I really do think a story that includes the mending of relations between two groups who vary so greatly from one another would do very well in a story.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

What?

 

[Dartholomew]

That's an interesting way to put it. There are tons of civilizations and indigenous tribes you can model from. Like South American Tribes, Southeast Asian indigenous tribes, and so on. It might add interesting dynamics between the more advanced civilization and the tribes' deliberate reluctance on "advancing" themselves.

 

[BlackKnightX]

Cute monster girls for the win! (Not a joke.)

 

[CupcakeNinja]

What?

He wants a story detailing the relations between humans and monsters and the influence one has on the other. It's always the monsters are evil or better than humans cuz "human bad" and shit.

So he wants one where, for example, racial discrimination became a reason some monsters dont evolve past mud huts and loin clothes. Cuz trying a build a better society would cause humans to retaliate.

It's like how Demon Lords come into existence and suddenly the monsters organize and shit, almost. But here they dont evolve simply for self preservation and oppression.

He drew a connection between monster and humans and Native Americans and how early settlers demonized them. It's all a matter or perspective, in essence.

 

[CL]

The idea about making monsters in stories civilized in nowhere near an original idea, but I don't think I've seen very many stories that do it well. The 'monsters' in fictional worlds usually are either just inherently evil or it's a story where humans are worse than the monsters. Take goblins for example in most media they're the cannon fodder of cannon fodder not even worth looking at (except maybe in goblin slayer, but that doesn't paint them in a flattering light) so the only role they serve is to hang around primitive huts and be hunted by adventurers in stories. Recently though I've found myself thinking about it, if you really stretch your imagination then you could possibly draw parallels between them and how early settlers looked at Native Americans (They were often looked down upon as savages). Now I'm not trying to demonize either early settlers or Native Americans but the fact of the matter was despite neutral or even the good relationships between the two groups the settlers kept expanding and pushing Native Americans further back. I think I similar dynamic could work wonderfully in a story, between monsters and humans. Where neither group could be point blankly be called evil and the reader would have hard time choosing who they thought was in the right.

One idea I had was building on the idea of why goblins continued to live in huts with primitive tools when compared to other races like humans and often times other demons. What if a story went into detail about how every time goblins built anything bigger than a tent they were hunted down making all their progress for naught. Leaving no room for anything other than survival no possibility of innovation for them. Mind you I still think the 'civilized' races would have good reason to hunt them down either for past grievances and hostile relations, or opposing clashing beliefs.

Though to be honest I don't know how I would want such a story to go. Since despite me writing all that I did above I don't think such an issue should be the center piece of a novel, but rather a background to enrich and support the story. Thinking about it I suppose it wouldn't matter to me as long as it does it's story telling well, but I really do think a story that includes the mending of relations between two groups who vary so greatly from one another would do very well in a story.

I can't explain very well on why I had this thought when reading your idea, but I'll try. I was thinking how this sounded a lot like mainstream production companies always destroying "competitions" utilizing alternative resources that had the potential to be better and greater had they been permitted to progress.

Now I am aware this could sound like me talking about fuel alternatives, but I was thinking on things such as paper.

There is a story (more like a newspaper article) complaining about the progression of paper. Also I can't say if this is a true story. There was this professor from the 19th century that would provide the chalk board for his students to write on because he wasn't in control of what they wrote on paper, but he wrote a complaint towards the community "What will students do if they grow dependent on paper and we run out of trees?".

That is what I was thinking about when I read this thread.

 

[ThrillingHuman]

I'm against human-centric settingsin general. Why does an intelligent being that isn't human, have to be human-like? I prefer trying to write a story where humans live in a world, not where the world is made for hans in it.

 

[Ilikewaterkusa]

The idea about making monsters in stories civilized in nowhere near an original idea, but I don't think I've seen very many stories that do it well. The 'monsters' in fictional worlds usually are either just inherently evil or it's a story where humans are worse than the monsters. Take goblins for example in most media they're the cannon fodder of cannon fodder not even worth looking at (except maybe in goblin slayer, but that doesn't paint them in a flattering light) so the only role they serve is to hang around primitive huts and be hunted by adventurers in stories. Recently though I've found myself thinking about it, if you really stretch your imagination then you could possibly draw parallels between them and how early settlers looked at Native Americans (They were often looked down upon as savages). Now I'm not trying to demonize either early settlers or Native Americans but the fact of the matter was despite neutral or even the good relationships between the two groups the settlers kept expanding and pushing Native Americans further back. I think I similar dynamic could work wonderfully in a story, between monsters and humans. Where neither group could be point blankly be called evil and the reader would have hard time choosing who they thought was in the right.

One idea I had was building on the idea of why goblins continued to live in huts with primitive tools when compared to other races like humans and often times other demons. What if a story went into detail about how every time goblins built anything bigger than a tent they were hunted down making all their progress for naught. Leaving no room for anything other than survival no possibility of innovation for them. Mind you I still think the 'civilized' races would have good reason to hunt them down either for past grievances and hostile relations, or opposing clashing beliefs.

Though to be honest I don't know how I would want such a story to go. Since despite me writing all that I did above I don't think such an issue should be the center piece of a novel, but rather a background to enrich and support the story. Thinking about it I suppose it wouldn't matter to me as long as it does it's story telling well, but I really do think a story that includes the mending of relations between two groups who vary so greatly from one another would do very well in a story.

They deserved it.

 

[NotaNuffian]

Good luck with writing a grey world then.

Here is a worthless advice from me, try not to focus on either side too much or try not to draw the good and bad revelations too much. For the former, it is because you and probably the readers will end up siding with the side they spent a long time with (see AOT) and the latter is for the phrase "where you stand is where you shall think" , think about Tatsumi's team vs Esdeath's, one is against Empire, thus they seek to destroy it as it is uncurable while the other seeks to reform it as it is uncurable. In the situation of an uncurable case comes two different stances, because when things boil down to its basic form, there will always left with two choices; with me or against me. Once this happens, drawing good and bad in things you do is just silly as you will justify every bad things and promote the good things.

Or you can go ham, make them both hyperaware of their bads and they scream some hyperpatriotic shits at each other.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

He wants a story detailing the relations between humans and monsters and the influence one has on the other. It's always the monsters are evil or better than humans cuz "human bad" and shit.

So he wants one where, for example, racial discrimination became a reason some monsters dont evolve past mud huts and loin clothes. Cuz trying a build a better society would cause humans to retaliate.

It's like how Demon Lords come into existence and suddenly the monsters organize and shit, almost. But here they dont evolve simply for self preservation and oppression.

He drew a connection between monster and humans and Native Americans and how early settlers demonized them. It's all a matter or perspective, in essence.

If monsters try to organize, they stop being monsters and just become another fantasy race, are they not? Kind of like beastkin works in some novels. Those who have their kingdom are a race, while at the same time, those who are mindlessly killing everyone and abiding by their most basic instincts are monsters. That's what I don't understand. If you have orcs that think beyond their instincts, build huts from mud, and try to organize themselves, they stop being Japanese rapey monsters. They became a race like in Warcraft, Lotr, Age of Wonders, WH40K, etc.

 

[Cipiteca396]

The Iron Teeth: A Goblin's Tale | Royal Road

A new, darker age is dawning. The greed of kings has ignited a seemingly endless war. As men fight, the monsters of the untamed wilds are devouring the frontier. Villages are abandoned as fields go fallow. Murderous bandits roam the desolation. None of that matters to a nameless goblin slave. He...

www.royalroad.com

The Simple Job of Only Perishing to the Hero - Novel Updates

www.novelupdates.com

These stories come to mind. There's actually a lot more, but yeah. It's pretty common.

 

[Echimera]

If monsters try to organize, they stop being monsters and just become another fantasy race, are they not? Kind of like beastkin works in some novels. Those who have their kingdom are a race, while at the same time, those who are mindlessly killing everyone and abiding by their most basic instincts are monsters. That's what I don't understand. If you have orcs that think beyond their instincts, build huts from mud, and try to organize themselves, they stop being Japanese rapey monsters. They became a race like in Warcraft, Lotr, Age of Wonders, WH40K, etc.

Good point, the first thing on this topic (as with so many others) should really be defining what the terms we use actually mean.

Monsters can be many things, depending on the setting, basically hyperaggressive animals (with magic abilities), animals corrupted by some form of magic, malevolent manifestations of magic itself, actually civilized species called monsters by xenophobic humans, ...

And depending on the context of the setting, the whole topic can have very different meanings.

 

[mysterious_cube]

There are actually some stories that explore these things

Wandering inn (web serial): the goblins get treated as monsters but they're basically just people. Occasionally they manage to built something worthwhile but it's hard when every faction hates you

Goblins (webcomic): the goblins are seen as monsters but they're just people (told from the perspective of goblins)

By the book (webcomic): a bunch of monsters (including one goblin) comes across an adventurer manual and takes up adventuring. They instantly start saving people which suggests that there's nothing evil about them

 

[CupcakeNinja]

If monsters try to organize, they stop being monsters and just become another fantasy race, are they not? Kind of like beastkin works in some novels. Those who have their kingdom are a race, while at the same time, those who are mindlessly killing everyone and abiding by their most basic instincts are monsters. That's what I don't understand. If you have orcs that think beyond their instincts, build huts from mud, and try to organize themselves, they stop being Japanese rapey monsters. They became a race like in Warcraft, Lotr, Age of Wonders, WH40K, etc.

Yeah that's what's kinda weird about it but I ain't gonna question it. Man wants what he wants

 

[Cauldrons]

I'm against human-centric settingsin general. Why does an intelligent being that isn't human, have to be human-like? I prefer trying to write a story where humans live in a world, not where the world is made for hans in it.

Because we only have humans as a base-line for what a 'civilized' race should look like, even in stories. If an author doesn't incorporate humanlike traits into a race then they become nothing more than animals. Think about from Elves to Dwarves they all come from the human imagination and what we consider to be civilized. Sure some of the races in fantasy are barbaric and would do horrible acts, but are those acts of barbarism not based on those of humans and what we have done throughout history? I'm not saying an alien perspective would be entirely impossible but that just what it would be, an alien perspective. In the context of stories such as these humans and other races have interacted for better or worse and no matter how shallowly the would understand the other culture.

 

[ThrillingHuman]

Because we only have humans as a base-line for what a 'civilized' race should look like, even in stories.

Hmm.... Nada. Intelligence could be used as a thing that allows the creatures to adapt or change the environment in very unpredictable ways. Imagine monster trees that use fungi for both communication and as tools for change of their environment. But like, very weird fungi. Like, in order to communicate with other intelligent races they create hallucinogenics that cause you to trip in very specific ways.
And after dome point in the story, they all collectively almost stop using fungi and begin using and mutating animals like beatles and birds.
Sure, they would have a kernel of humanity, but if sn author takes care to understand how trees work, they could give them goals, priorities, cultures and methods that would be very very different from any human civilization.
"We only have humans to compare to", means that you just have to use imagination.
It doesn't have to be so extreme, however. About goblins, for example. You said that "what if they didn't do progress because they got hunted down every time they tried", I say, "what if they had no interest in progress in the first place?", adding some very inhuman traits that make them monsters and maybe even make their society disfunctional from our point of view.

 

[Cauldrons]

Hmm.... Nada. Intelligence could be used as a thing that allows the creatures to adapt or change the environment in very unpredictable ways. Imagine monster trees that use fungi for both communication and as tools for change of their environment. But like, very weird fungi. Like, in order to communicate with other intelligent races they create hallucinogenics that cause you to trip in very specific ways.
And after dome point in the story, they all collectively almost stop using fungi and begin using and mutating animals like beatles and birds.
Sure, they would have a kernel of humanity, but if sn author takes care to understand how trees work, they could give them goals, priorities, cultures and methods that would be very very different from any human civilization.
"We only have humans to compare to", means that you just have to use imagination.
It doesn't have to be so extreme, however. About goblins, for example. You said that "what if they didn't do progress because they got hunted down every time they tried", I say, "what if they had no interest in progress in the first place?", adding some very inhuman traits that make them monsters and maybe even make their society disfunctional from our point of view.

But they would still have goals. At the end of the day if you want a sapient creature in a novel then you need to 'humanize' it in a way. No matter how foreign it may eat, communicate, or think. As an author they only know how humans think or behave to that bleeds into their writing.

 

[ThrillingHuman]

But they would still have goals. At the end of the day if you want a sapient creature in a novel then you need to 'humanize' it in a way. No matter how foreign it may eat, communicate, or think. As an author they only know how humans think or behave to that bleeds into their writing.

Ye, but that don't mean you have to go all the way.

 

[aattss]

I’d say make monsters humanized and make humans treat them as such without doing yet another humans are racist/the real bad guys plot. Or just don’t include humans at all.