How to Spot Bad Criticism

Story_Marc

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I wish I had learned this much sooner. I know how easy it is for people to get fooled into thinking all feedback and criticism is good. I also know how easy it is for people to be delusional when faced with criticism. This is a distilled version of what I use and do when faced with it, to weigh the criticism's value.
 

Anonjohn20

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I wish I had learned this much sooner. I know how easy it is for people to get fooled into thinking all feedback and criticism is good. I also know how easy it is for people to be delusional when faced with criticism. This is a distilled version of what I use and do when faced with it, to weigh the criticism's value.
Honestly, people receiving negative feedback (no matter how valid it might be) might always assume that they are receiving "destructive criticism." My mind remembers a certain smut author on this site that goes into arguments with his readers in the comments section.
 

Thraben

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On SH and similar sites in particular, I've constantly put everywhere that I can that most people are criticizing things from the perspective of a product being reviewed, when for the vast majority of writing there is no product being sold and so such reviews are categorically unhelpful. The 5-star review system especially is categorically unhelpful, and the reviews that don't have star ratings should be the only option unless an author Opts In to their work being treated as a product for sale.
 

Story_Marc

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Honestly, people receiving negative feedback (no matter how valid it might be) might always assume that they are receiving "destructive criticism." My mind remembers a certain smut author on this site that goes into arguments with his readers in the comments section.
Hence why I said what I did in the video about "delusional" people and broke down actual clear signs to look out for to judge if something is destructive or not.

That said, I'm going to return to the concept of delusion and how to determine whether oneself is the problem.
On SH and similar sites in particular, I've constantly put everywhere that I can that most people are criticizing things from the perspective of a product being reviewed, when for the vast majority of writing there is no product being sold and so such reviews are categorically unhelpful. The 5-star review system especially is categorically unhelpful, and the reviews that don't have star ratings should be the only option unless an author Opts In to their work being treated as a product for sale.
It is a product, though. Even without selling for money, entertainment is a transaction. The audience pays with time. When you put something out to the public, you enter this transactional marketplace, whether you want to or not.

Whether something is meant for a specific ground or not is a whole other thing. But that obscures a simple concept and evolves it into a different topic. You opt-in the second you post.
 

TheEldritchGod

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On SH and similar sites in particular, I've constantly put everywhere that I can that most people are criticizing things from the perspective of a product being reviewed, when for the vast majority of writing there is no product being sold and so such reviews are categorically unhelpful. The 5-star review system especially is categorically unhelpful, and the reviews that don't have star ratings should be the only option unless an author Opts In to their work being treated as a product for sale.
Dude, what the hell? Of course your product is being sold.

You are asking for my TIME. There is no more valuable thing in the universe and you want me to spend my time on you.

Yet, for some reason I should not be able to warn people about or encourage people to consume your product? You want me to spend my LIMITED TIME on you and take away my ability to talk about your product because you feel MY TIME is so worthless that you are ENTITLED TO IT?

Go to hell.
 

CharlesEBrown

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I consider any feedback good, myself - because it means someone read it and is thinking about it. And if what they're thinking is "this writer is an a-hole" or "this story is dumb" well, that's on them, but at least they read it. Now, I would much rather see detailed criticism, good or bad, but anything means it is being read.

I try to use the "capsule review" system that one magazine requested reviews in: "List one good and one bad point in your opening sentence, and a general overview. Explain why each point was good or bad. Close with your general impression; try to be positive if you can, or explain why you can't"

If I ever do a long review, I will definitely try to use the system that that same magazine (the no-longer-in-print Shadis) had for formal reviews:
Opening paragraph: First sentence identify item being reviewed. Second sentence list three good and three bad things about it (if you can't find three of one or the other, then you are probably not the best choice to review it). Third sentence: give overall general impression, good or bad.
Then each of the next six paragraphs goes into one good or bad element (and may mention other good or bad elements as well but focuses on one of the six in the opening paragraph.
Final paragraph: Explain which good and bad points were the most important in forming your opinion, and restate that opinion of the product.
 

Thraben

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Dude, what the hell? Of course your product is being sold.

You are asking for my TIME. There is no more valuable thing in the universe and you want me to spend my time on you.

Yet, for some reason I should not be able to warn people about or encourage people to consume your product? You want me to spend my LIMITED TIME on you and take away my ability to talk about your product because you feel MY TIME is so worthless that you are ENTITLED TO IT?

Go to hell.
I specifically am NOT asking you for your time, and I receive no benefit for you providing it or detriment for you not providing it. I receive no money, even if a million people read my work, because it is not for sale. In fact, the only entity that tangibly makes any sort of money off of my work is the site I post it to, through advertising dollars.

The very fact that your mind immediately jumped to the review system as being a way of 'warning' people about 'consuming' a product that I am not selling and do not profit from already proves my point correct. You have already self admitted it isn't a review of the work, but of it's value as a commodity. When it isn't a commodity, I don't want it to be reviewed for it's value as one.

Your tone is concerning and your insults doubly so, but I do hope you think critically about the fact you entirely avoided the crux of my argument; the written portion of a review is incredibly, ludicrously valuable to an author's ability to improve, whereas a star rating is only valuable to a website trying to make money off of advertising dollars.

It is a product, though. Even without selling for money, entertainment is a transaction. The audience pays with time. When you put something out to the public, you enter this transactional marketplace, whether you want to or not.

Whether something is meant for a specific ground or not is a whole other thing. But that obscures a simple concept and evolves it into a different topic. You opt-in the second you post.

I do wonder what people think they're saying when they say 'you pay with your time'. Like, do you actually think that you're giving up your time to me, the author? Are you giving your time to the website? What are you giving your time to?

Time isn't a thing you can take or give away. The thing you are accepting as transaction is the website taking your personal data and browsing habits to form an advertisement portfolio data brokers can sell.

Barring that, on more scrupulous operations you're being advertised to directly. The transaction is between you and the website, and it is one of trading speculative advertising returns and data collected for entertainment distribution.

Hundreds of authors here don't have Patreons or YouTube channels, they do not see a dime from the actual transaction occurring between a reader and the site; and odds are, the reader didn't tangibly lose one either.

Time is not a quantity that can be sold or traded and it is disingenuous to try and claim that it is.

With that out of the way, I still take great issue with the assumption that 'everything must be a commodity' because if you actually believed that we'd need to have a serious debate over whether or not this very post is a commodity I am selling.

Or if your response to my first post is. Or if your old math tests from middle school are.

Beyond that the vast majority of works on SH just definitionally aren't commodities or products, claiming that every publicly available creative thing is is both blatantly false and morally unacceptable as a position to be taking under a discussion of criticism.

I'll say it for a third time now. On SH, wherein the majority of fics are not commodities or products, but merely publicly available art, as system that rates things for their value as a product is flawed and against the benefit of the authors. The written reviews? Unbelievably and irrefutably helpful for authors and readers alike. Star ratings? Categorically unhelpful for the authors not selling their story, and considerably less helpful to a potential reader than a simple like/dislike ratio would be. Y'know what a star rating is helpful for? Data brokers. "Story_Marc consistently gives high star ratings to X type of fiction" is useless to YOU, and to the individual author you rated, nor did it cost you anything or benefit that author, but it sure as shit makes some data seller a few pennies richer.

Don't get me wrong, I know full well why SH has it; it's so they can continue to operate long term. I make my points as an assurance to authors beating themselves up over their star ratings. Please do not miscategorize my arguments or motivations any further.

I'm sure if I spent another half-hour fixing and refining this I could post it as it's own thing, and I might do that, but for now, I'll consider this a rough draft, and you're all just gonna have to fuckin accept that since I make no money from it, you lose nothing from it, and Sh probably also makes or loses nothing from it.
 

Anonjohn20

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I specifically am NOT asking you for your time, and I receive no benefit for you providing it or detriment for you not providing it. I receive no money, even if a million people read my work, because it is not for sale. In fact, the only entity that tangibly makes any sort of money off of my work is the site I post it to, through advertising dollars.

The very fact that your mind immediately jumped to the review system as being a way of 'warning' people about 'consuming' a product that I am not selling and do not profit from already proves my point correct. You have already self admitted it isn't a review of the work, but of it's value as a commodity. When it isn't a commodity, I don't want it to be reviewed for it's value as one.

Your tone is concerning and your insults doubly so, but I do hope you think critically about the fact you entirely avoided the crux of my argument; the written portion of a review is incredibly, ludicrously valuable to an author's ability to improve, whereas a star rating is only valuable to a website trying to make money off of advertising dollars.



I do wonder what people think they're saying when they say 'you pay with your time'. Like, do you actually think that you're giving up your time to me, the author? Are you giving your time to the website? What are you giving your time to?

Time isn't a thing you can take or give away. The thing you are accepting as transaction is the website taking your personal data and browsing habits to form an advertisement portfolio data brokers can sell.

Barring that, on more scrupulous operations you're being advertised to directly. The transaction is between you and the website, and it is one of trading speculative advertising returns and data collected for entertainment distribution.

Hundreds of authors here don't have Patreons or YouTube channels, they do not see a dime from the actual transaction occurring between a reader and the site; and odds are, the reader didn't tangibly lose one either.

Time is not a quantity that can be sold or traded and it is disingenuous to try and claim that it is.

With that out of the way, I still take great issue with the assumption that 'everything must be a commodity' because if you actually believed that we'd need to have a serious debate over whether or not this very post is a commodity I am selling.

Or if your response to my first post is. Or if your old math tests from middle school are.

Beyond that the vast majority of works on SH just definitionally aren't commodities or products, claiming that every publicly available creative thing is is both blatantly false and morally unacceptable as a position to be taking under a discussion of criticism.

I'll say it for a third time now. On SH, wherein the majority of fics are not commodities or products, but merely publicly available art, as system that rates things for their value as a product is flawed and against the benefit of the authors. The written reviews? Unbelievably and irrefutably helpful for authors and readers alike. Star ratings? Categorically unhelpful for the authors not selling their story, and considerably less helpful to a potential reader than a simple like/dislike ratio would be. Y'know what a star rating is helpful for? Data brokers. "Story_Marc consistently gives high star ratings to X type of fiction" is useless to YOU, and to the individual author you rated, nor did it cost you anything or benefit that author, but it sure as shit makes some data seller a few pennies richer.

Don't get me wrong, I know full well why SH has it; it's so they can continue to operate long term. I make my points as an assurance to authors beating themselves up over their star ratings. Please do not miscategorize my arguments or motivations any further.

I'm sure if I spent another half-hour fixing and refining this I could post it as it's own thing, and I might do that, but for now, I'll consider this a rough draft, and you're all just gonna have to fuckin accept that since I make no money from it, you lose nothing from it, and Sh probably also makes or loses nothing from it.
Why are you in a reading website if you're this bad at reading? At no point was @TheEldritchGod or @Story_Marc response about money. Time itself is more valuable than money; you can get richer or poorer, you can't get younger. Whether someone spent their time learning something new, practicing a skill they already had, being with their loved ones, working, enjoying entertainment, etc., they should still be allowed to have an opinion on whatever it is they spent their time doing. Complaining that people are allowed to share that opinion is, frankly, really dumb.

Time is not a quantity that can be sold or traded and it is disingenuous to try and claim that it is.
Have you ever heard of a job? You spend time and effort and are compensated for it. You could have spent that time doing something else.
 

melchi

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No need to turn this into a flame war. If someone doesn't like how the review system works on a certain site badly enough they can just not use that site. I'm sure tony would listen to any respectful proposal. But at the end of the day the person who write the code gets the final say on how reviews work.

As for feedback, it is easy to get blinders put on yourself. Sometimes I've find myself interrupting something as an attack rather than seeing the intentions of the person who wrote it.

Like Mark said, some of these things are in formal debate structure. The moment the subject changes to "You" rather than the thing in question we call that "Ad Hominem" https://www.txst.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/ad-hominem.html

Anyone that puts logical fallacies in their review like this can safely be ignored. It is the same thing as "R" for rudeness I'd think just more formal.

I took a class on peer training once and they put some guidelines for good feedback. (I'll try to remember them.

Good feedback is: 1.) Timely (The more time passes the less actionable it is) 2.) Specific (The more general it is, the more room for misunderstanding there is)

For example: There is, that one character with the blue hair, I don't like them.

Better example: When blue-hair on page 23 paragraph 7 did X I my opinion changed to dislike.

If the author's intention was for blue-hair to be disliked then really it is a praise. But if the intention was not for them to be disliked, and more than one person brings it up, maybe some editing would help improve the story.

People can have different opinions on different things and that's okay. Like for example, a lot of people on RR want to read stories with OP protags and if the MC is not being the OP protag people complain. Those comments are really more about saying they like certain genres than anything meaningful about the story. Yes, they are valid. Also, yes, if you don't like writing OP protag stories then it isn't very useful. Both of these things are OKAY.
 

3guanoff

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I consider any feedback good, myself - because it means someone read it and is thinking about it. And if what they're thinking is "this writer is an a-hole" or "this story is dumb" well, that's on them, but at least they read it. Now, I would much rather see detailed criticism, good or bad, but anything means it is being read.
Agreed.

Mate, if someone rates and reviews your work, you can be proud. Means someone clicked on it, read at least the synopsis, and bothered to leave a review. Ergo, your writing invoked strong enough feelings that they bothered.

Of course, there are some other options such as crazy and idle people leaving reviews for fun.

And course it's different if you are doing business. Reviews matter. BTAIM, this site is hardly the place for that. Be it porn or LitRPGs, there are other sites for earning hard cash with your writing.
 
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