How do you feel about the AWU writer's strike?

[Representing_Tromba]

So to explain, the American Writer's Union has gone on strike against Hollywood TV producers. Their reasoning being that the union contract recently expired and neither the Union nor Hollywood could agree to terms. I don't know every detail but from what I gathered, Hollywood doesn't want to pay the writers enough while also increasing their production funding.

Now, my personal opinion is that Hollywood should pay them more because they deserve to be paid properly for their work. However, I don't like the idea of bad writers being given the equivalent of tenure since that just means we're gonna get more shows/movies with shit writing. I can justify the last sentence since a good chunk of the union writer's are daytime/reality television show writer's who we already know are awful. That said, I may be wrong and possibly have a misunderstanding of the situation, so do your own research and let me know what you think about it. Are you with Hollywood, the Union, neither, or both?

 

[Corty]

Neither.

Because I know too little about the whole thing to even make any decision or take any stance about it.

 

[Representing_Tromba]

Neither.

Because I know too little about the whole thing to even make any decision or take any stance about it.

That's why I said to do your own research, but I can respect not getting involved by any means.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Both are shit.

 

[AnonUnlimited]

Hollywood needs to end their woke agenda.

The reason for the disagreement is because they're losing money because people are tuning them out, the writers contract won't be renewed if there is only loss going around, but a lot of the writers don't understand economics, or perhaps they are angry with the limitations placed on them for the content they must write.

Something like that.

 

[Representing_Tromba]

Agre

Hollywood needs to end their woke agenda.

The reason for the disagreement is because they're losing money because people are tuning them out, the writers contract won't be renewed if there is only loss going around, but a lot of the writers don't understand economics, or perhaps they are angry with the limitations placed on them for the content they must write.

Something like that.

Agreed.

 

[Corty]

That's why I said to do your own research, but I can respect not getting involved by any means.

Yeah, Hollywood is 9920.2 km (6164.2 mi.) from where I live, so not really bothered by what goes in there. Not to mention, there are increasingly fewer and fewer things that Mr. Hollywood puts out that truly interest me as the years go by. Gone by the years when I wanted to go see a movie in the theater or as soon as possible because it sounded so cool. I think the last movie I watched (in the cinema) was The Force Awakens. Aaaand that made sure to conclude that Hollywood shat on another thing I grew up with. Sooo... Eh. What happens, happens. I'll be mildly interested at best.

Edit: and what they did to some established franchises, I would want to pay the writers in bananas and not money because a group of monkies could write some of that shit by banging their heads against a keyboard.

 

[Tyranomaster]

The writers, as I understand it, are angry that the new contracts seem to be "gig economy" style jobs. Obviously, no one likes that their job becomes unstable. On the other hand AI writing was greenlit to be used without oversight by some production company, so they might end up just unemployed. I've never been that much of a fan of collective contracts. If you want to unionize to get better work conditions, or eliminate certain negative practices then ok. But when everyone in the union gets the same contract and no one can be fired, it leads to shoddy work by most members.

Good union examples (general collective bargaining):
"We are going on strike until the company has a maximum 9 hour work day!"
"The factory needs better safety devices, until then we won't work!"
"The company needs higher benefits for all workers!"

Bad union examples (quasi-mob behavior):
"We all must get the same contract and be unfirable, or you get none of us!"
"Union workers are the only ones who need these benefits, the unionized can screw off, since they didn't join!"

For this one I'm torn because on one hand, yes the writers should protest if they're seeing a backslide in conditions. On the other hand, they're also going about it from a union contract perspective, rather than industry standard.

 

[Representing_Tromba]

The writers, as I understand it, are angry that the new contracts seem to be "gig economy" style jobs. Obviously, no one likes that their job becomes unstable. On the other hand AI writing was greenlit to be used without oversight by some production company, so they might end up just unemployed. I've never been that much of a fan of collective contracts. If you want to unionize to get better work conditions, or eliminate certain negative practices then ok. But when everyone in the union gets the same contract and no one can be fired, it leads to shoddy work by most members.

Good union examples (general collective bargaining):
"We are going on strike until the company has a maximum 9 hour work day!"
"The factory needs better safety devices, until then we won't work!"
"The company needs higher benefits for all workers!"

Bad union examples (quasi-mob behavior):
"We all must get the same contract and be unfirable, or you get none of us!"
"Union workers are the only ones who need these benefits, the unionized can screw off, since they didn't join!"

For this one I'm torn because on one hand, yes the writers should protest if they're seeing a backslide in conditions. On the other hand, they're also going about it from a union contract perspective, rather than industry standard.

That leads to a whole discussion on poor Union choices and AI uses. Both are things in which I am adamantly against for the reasons you already listed.

 

[KrakenRiderEmma]

However, I don't like the idea of bad writers being given the equivalent of tenure since that just means we're gonna get more shows/movies with shit writing. I can justify the last sentence since a good chunk of the union writer's are daytime/reality television show writer's who we already know are awful. That said, I may be wrong and possibly have a misunderstanding of the situation, so do your own research and let me know what you think about it.

I’ve never heard of anything like “tenure” in any writers’ contract. Creative contracts for people like actors, writers, directors, etc don’t work like workplace union contracts, I don’t believe there’s anything in them about having to rehire the same people, or that writers are guaranteed continued work, or anything like that. In other words, nothing protects an awful writer from the fate of never working again. If you found something that says bad writers can get the equivalent of tenure I’d be curious to see it because I could be wrong.

Ironically the boom in reality TV started during the last big WGA strike, when there were no writers around for more than three months. The TV studios tried to look for ways of making TV with fewer writers, only non-union writers, etc and reality TV had been getting popular for a while, but suddenly that category went from a few popular shows (MTV’s the Real World, Survivor, etc) to dozens and dozens of reality shows everywhere.

 

[Iamnotabot]

honestly i don't even know they're on a strike.

writter need to get better pay and i get that means bad writter also get it but think if there's a good writter then better chance for them no ?

I mean it's everyone get better or no one, it's like that one group project that you'll do in school and there's always that one guy who does nothing but the teacher just let him pass since it's a team.

 

[Representing_Tromba]

I’ve never heard of anything like “tenure” in any writers’ contract. Creative contracts for people like actors, writers, directors, etc don’t work like workplace union contracts, I don’t believe there’s anything in them about having to rehire the same people, or that writers are guaranteed continued work, or anything like that. In other words, nothing protects an awful writer from the fate of never working again. If you found something that says bad writers can get the equivalent of tenure I’d be curious to see it because I could be wrong.

Ironically the boom in reality TV started during the last big WGA strike, when there were no writers around for more than three months. The TV studios tried to look for ways of making TV with fewer writers, only non-union writers, etc and reality TV had been getting popular for a while, but suddenly that category went from a few popular shows (MTV’s the Real World, Survivor, etc) to dozens and dozens of reality shows everywhere.

I said the equivalent of tenure as I don't know what the screenwriter's version of it would be called. Basically, a piece of paper saying that the studio can't fire them until after a certain point. Schools are already having an issue of bad teachers/professors who can't be fired under most circumstances because of the tenure that they have. The last 3-year union contract was basically a form of tenure but wasn't an all-encompassing version like with teachers.

As for your second paragraph, That's what a lot of people are fearing is going to happen with the possibility AI writers taking over and making more shitty shows in the same way they did with reality TV whilst also putting all the union writers out of the job.

 

[KrakenRiderEmma]

The real reason that Hollywood won’t pay more is two things, and neither of them is “Hollywood studios are losing money.” They’re making tons of money and are very profitable if you look at financial reports and quarterly earnings. However, there are two problems:

First, they’re in debt because they spend a huge amount of money making acquisitions. Discovery Channel bought Scripps (Food Network, HGTV, Travel Channel). Warner Bros bought DC a while back, then AT&T bought Warner Bros, then also bought Discovery Channel, making Warner Bros Discovery. Disney buys… well, everything they can get their hands on. These companies have “debt” on their books because they spend all their cash buying more companies, and then don’t have any to increase salaries. It’s like if your parents said “sorry, we can’t buy you books for school, we’re poor now because we bought two houses.” It’s technically correct, but all the money is in the houses / new companies!

Second, as this quote from the NY Times suggests, it’s not that media companies don’t make money, it’s that they’re not growing fast enough for Wall Street banks and investors. “Profit” is never enough, it has to be huge growth to satisfy investors demand, and that’s a mental disease that started back in the “dot com boom” era of the late 90s. Before then, Wall Street banks were happy to have a bunch of investments that just grew slowly or were reliable. Now it’s growth, growth, growth. As a result, Netflix has even acknowledged canceling shows that are profitable for them, just because they’re not “popular enough.” I am not part of any TV show fandom, I don’t really care enough about TV or movies these days — but I feel pretty bad for fans of streaming shows because they often get canceled after two seasons. It happens more often with anime now too. How many seasons will a popular shonen hit like Demon Hunter or Jujutsu Kaiser get? Probably not as many as Naruto, One Piece or Dragonball, because the days of really long series are over because of “gotta have growth.”

 

[Tyranomaster]

I’ve never heard of anything like “tenure” in any writers’ contract. Creative contracts for people like actors, writers, directors, etc don’t work like workplace union contracts, I don’t believe there’s anything in them about having to rehire the same people, or that writers are guaranteed continued work, or anything like that. In other words, nothing protects an awful writer from the fate of never working again. If you found something that says bad writers can get the equivalent of tenure I’d be curious to see it because I could be wrong.

My understanding is most jobs currently hire contractually for a season or series of a show. Obviously certain base obligations need to be met (actually doing work), but I don't think that generally they're fired mid-season for bad performance, they just don't renew the series, or replace writers at that point.

writter need to get better pay and i get that means bad writter also get it but think if there's a good writter then better chance for them no ?

I mean it's everyone get better or no one, it's like that one group project that you'll do in school and there's always that one guy who does nothing but the teacher just let him pass since it's a team.

While that is true, the quality of the product suffers. I mean, I think Scribblehub will be biased considering the volume of content here, but Japan/China/Korea are incredibly anti-union, and most people here would agree that the quality of writing in recent history from America (TV/Books/Movies) has been pretty shoddy by comparison.

A Barnes and Noble employee I talked to recently (As the Manga section continues to grow in size forever) said the vast bulk of what they sell in a month is Manga and Light Novels. There is a reason for that.

The real reason that Hollywood won’t pay more is two things, and neither of them is “Hollywood studios are losing money.” They’re making tons of money and are very profitable if you look at financial reports and quarterly earnings. However, there are two problems:

First, they’re in debt because they spend a huge amount of money making acquisitions. Discovery Channel bought Scripps (Food Network, HGTV, Travel Channel). Warner Bros bought DC a while back, then AT&T bought Warner Bros, then also bought Discovery Channel, making Warner Bros Discovery. Disney buys… well, everything they can get their hands on. These companies have “debt” on their books because they spend all their cash buying more companies, and then don’t have any to increase salaries. It’s like if your parents said “sorry, we can’t buy you books for school, we’re poor now because we bought two houses.” It’s technically correct, but all the money is in the houses / new companies!

Second, as this quote from the NY Times suggests, it’s not that media companies don’t make money, it’s that they’re not growing fast enough for Wall Street banks and investors. “Profit” is never enough, it has to be huge growth to satisfy investors demand, and that’s a mental disease that started back in the “dot com boom” era of the late 90s. Before then, Wall Street banks were happy to have a bunch of investments that just grew slowly or were reliable. Now it’s growth, growth, growth. As a result, Netflix has even acknowledged canceling shows that are profitable for them, just because they’re not “popular enough.” I am not part of any TV show fandom, I don’t really care enough about TV or movies these days — but I feel pretty bad for fans of streaming shows because they often get canceled after two seasons. It happens more often with anime now too. How many seasons will a popular shonen hit like Demon Hunter or Jujutsu Kaiser get? Probably not as many as Naruto, One Piece or Dragonball, because the days of really long series are over because of “gotta have growth.”

Corporate debt/acquisition cycling is some definite bullshit, and likely is part of why we're now entering a banking crisis. That said, if the writers cared about that, they would be negotiating, no they love their corporate brands and are intensely loyal to them. They don't want to freelance, they want to write for Disney/SNL/Warner etc because of nostalgia and clout. To each their own on that front.

As far as the talks about popular shonen getting long seasons, that's not an American thing. You left out Black Clover, which is now at 170 episodes, with more starting in June. Or My Hero, which looks like its gonna get through the whole show? Japan isn't suffering from the American Cultural decay, which is why their media is being consumed like hot cakes by the younger generation.

 

[proxybaba]

Just one sentence

CHAOS IS A LADDER !!
if not for humans, Its AI

 

[melchi]

I think the last time they striked it was because of royalties. If one person asks a giant company about royalties for their writing they could get laughed at. They also couldn't afford (likely?) to litigate. I'm sure the producers would love to get writers to engage in a race to the bottom. There is a lot history of this. Wanting protectionism is poop though. All that will do is drive the industry to other countries.

 

[KrakenRiderEmma]

I said the equivalent of tenure as I don't know what the screenwriter's version of it would be called. Basically, a piece of paper saying that the studio can't fire them until after a certain point. Schools are already having an issue of bad teachers/professors who can't be fired under most circumstances because of the tenure that they have. The last 3-year union contract was basically a form of tenure but wasn't an all-encompassing version like with teachers.

Teachers have this kind of protection of their job, since those are long-term jobs that people stay at. Writers don't get this. They are hired on a project/contract basis one season or one movie at a time, like Tyranomaster said. They don't get any "can't be fired" protections.... from look at the 2020 Writer's Guild of America contract the only termination protection is "must be given two weeks notice" kind of stuff.

As for your second paragraph, That's what a lot of people are fearing is going to happen with the possibility AI writers taking over and making more shitty shows in the same way they did with reality TV whilst also putting all the union writers out of the job.

Yeah, the contract negotiations with the writer's guild are also about whether human writers can be contracted to "partner" with an AI -- like, will the guild writers work to just "fix up" an AI script, can an AI get co-credit. The guild doesn't want to do this, and it's not hard to understand why. AI writers taking over, but with humans working sort of "behind the scenes" on the less creative work of fixing AI mistakes. I do this myself, and I find it interesting to creatively collaborate... but I would NOT want to do it for hire on someone else's idea, it's like getting a demotion from the main chef to a salad-maker. And it would likely lead to more quantity, lower quality and they'll lower the quality as far as they can before the audience riots, just trying out every different "formula" of story concept to see what works.

As far as the talks about popular shonen getting long seasons, that's not an American thing. You left out Black Clover, which is now at 170 episodes, with more starting in June. Or My Hero, which looks like its gonna get through the whole show? Japan isn't suffering from the American Cultural decay, which is why their media is being consumed like hot cakes by the younger generation.

You're right about Black Clover, but "just being profitable is enough, investment demands high growth curve" is not just an American phenomenon, it's global, which is why I included Japan.

As for quality of manga/manhwa, I tend to agree but the quality comparison there is more between authors of books ("young adult" market being the American equivalent sold to the same kids-through-20s audience) and authors of light novels / manga / manhwa, right? Book authors in the US have no kind of protections or union of any kind, and there is no "pipeline" of books being made into shows or movies here other than the top 3-5 series (Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, Twilight, Divergent, Golden Compass, whatever). That quality difference has been obvious since the 90s IMO, it's not a new thing.

Maybe quality of shows / movies here would be better if there was a light novel market where authors could prove their popularity first, and Hollywood pulled from that. I guess that would mean lots of LitRPG movies coming out in 2029, lol

 

[LunaSoltaer]

Let It Burn.

We can make our own stories, and often better.

Hells, I'd probably sooner trust a Random SH story than Hollywood at this point

(Please dont make me empirically test this.)

 

[Tyranomaster]

As for quality of manga/manhwa, I tend to agree but the quality comparison there is more between authors of books ("young adult" market being the American equivalent sold to the same kids-through-20s audience) and authors of light novels / manga / manhwa, right? Book authors in the US have no kind of protections or union of any kind, and there is no "pipeline" of books being made into shows or movies here other than the top 3-5 series (Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, Twilight, Divergent, Golden Compass, whatever). That quality difference has been obvious since the 90s IMO, it's not a new thing.

Maybe quality of shows / movies here would be better if there was a light novel market where authors could prove their popularity first, and Hollywood pulled from that. I guess that would mean lots of LitRPG movies coming out in 2029, lol

This is why we have between 1/5 and 1/2 of every anime being an isekai right now. It's just downstream of the light novel/manga market. That said, I do wish that the US system would adapt to be more similar in that regard. Part of the issue with the US system is that TV shows etc have these massive budgets to make series that are unproven, then fail. Then the overarching company has to plan for x% failures of projects, so they need to keep cash on hand in case their big budget film/show fails.

By comparison (and especially with Amazon self publishing, and print on demand), books have a much lower barrier to entry, and lower risk of failure, so they can vet good to great stories, then pipeline those to movies etc. They also can get a good approximate estimate of market reach, and plan a budget with decent margins as a result.

Each system has its own flaws though. Obviously the Japanese system lends itself to getting into trope ruts where suddenly for a few years you get some fad like Isekai or Angsty MC because its pipelined from books that sell well, which themselves have a feedback loop when something gets really big. The American system though gives us series like Velma. Obviously certain stand alone shows or movies exist in both systems where the only medium for the story is a TV series or Movie. The bottom tier of both suck, but I feel like the US system tends to have less very good series worth watching.

 

[AnonUnlimited]

@KrakenRiderEmma
I looked at some of your partial AI novels, small bits. The sentence structure is terrible and well…it will take a lot of work for a human writer to edit.

perhaps they should become an editors guild instead… although it’s probably more re-writing. Don’t know about future AI but right now I don’t think fiction writing will work well for AI.