Fantasy World Physics questions?

[naosu]

First off thank you all for reading this. Thanks for helping me work out physics for fantasy novels and chapters. And yes I may use some of the information in books or chapters for here. (I don't mind giving credit to anyone though if they feel they need it.)

SO ... here are some questions I had about some magic questions. Some of these have to do with the illusion element. And illusionists in magic. This is actually hard for me to understand. But the problem is it seems like illusionists and illusion magic would be very fun in a story setting as a 'job class' because it allows for more customization of effects than other magic types.

If an illusionist casts an illusion of house in a rain storm or snow storm, and then goes inside it to take shelter... what happens?

Do you think he would take FULL complete shelter from cold? Or should it be partial? Or partial according to level? I thought maybe it could also depend on level... but I'm hoping for some input.

And this is similar for other things. Like in some stories when an illusionist makes an illusion of a monster to attack someone... others seeing it as bystanders don't see it because they write it like its all happening in the mind of the person being attacked. But I don't really like this method of doing it because that kind of makes the 'illusion summons' NOT REAL. I think it would better if they were like in a state of maybe being 'half real' and tangible and visible by others. What do you think of this also?

And if you had an illusionist that makes their own spells from their imagination, then I suppose you could determine the damage by a % of the damage of the real element and spell its mimicking. But how do you determine if they can 'copy' other elements and spells and which ones? It seems like if you let them copy everything they can basically take like 50% damage copies of every element and have a huge spell arsenal. Like they could make a 'fake heal', a 'fake fireball', 'fake summons', etc... is that too OP?

 

[Empress_Omnii]

I like illusion magic, so I'll try and answer every question. But understand that there are countless different understandings and systems built for the magic, any aspect can be changed depending on story.

If an illusionist casts an illusion of house in a rain storm or snow storm, and then goes inside it to take shelter... what happens?

A problem answering this question is if the illusion magic has mental/sensory influence. (I am not going to be referencing any actualization here, I'll explain why at the end.)
An illusionist without any ability to influence the mind or senses creating a house? They may be able to hide the rain or snow visually, but they will feel it falling onto themselves.
An illusionist that can fool the senses? They will still be hit by rain or snow. But they can make it not feel like it is. They may make themselves feel warm. But they won't be.

Do you think he would take FULL complete shelter from cold? Or should it be partial? Or partial according to level? I thought maybe it could also depend on level... but I'm hoping for some input.

There is no physical aspect of illusion magic- it is just that. An illusion. Think of it as a trick of the light brought about by magic, they use mana to fool the mind into thinking things are their. But they aren't.

others seeing it as bystanders don't see it because they write it like its all happening in the mind of the person being attacked. But I don't really like this method of doing it because that kind of makes the 'illusion summons' NOT REAL. I think it would better if they were like in a state of maybe being 'half real' and tangible and visible by others. What do you think of this also?

Bystanders generally should be able to see the illusion, unless the illusion is specifically made only to be seen by the single target.

But for illusion magic. Their is no impact- it is only the appearance of something happening- otherwise it isn't an illusion...

And if you had an illusionist that makes their own spells from their imagination, then I suppose you could determine the damage by a % of the damage of the real element and spell its mimicking. But how do you determine if they can 'copy' other elements and spells and which ones? It seems like if you let them copy everything they can basically take like 50% damage copies of every element and have a huge spell arsenal. Like they could make a 'fake heal', a 'fake fireball', 'fake summons', etc... is that too OP?

You can do whatever you'd like with your own story. But these fake elemental effects are interesting, but for it to be illusion magic. Then they need to not actually cause real harm. Maybe they could be illusions that effectively cause harm- convincing the target that they are hurt. But they will still be perfectly healthy.

What you want to do is beyond the scope of illusion magic- it is something known as actualization. In which magic creates these objects or heat. I personally don't love the applications I know of and prefer illusion magic being related to mind magics.

Consider making the ability to copy these spells more than just... I want fireball. Woosh. I want fireray. Woosh. Their needs to be more than just copying it. Think of the fact that these fire mages need to study and train fire magic. This is just a layman using illusions/actualization to copy them. Your character should not be better than any other just as trained mages in their own field. (Also don't give them the ability to heal- just let them summon fire or solidify mana at most.)

 

[naosu]

I like illusion magic, so I'll try and answer every question. But understand that there are countless different understandings and systems built for the magic, any aspect can be changed depending on story.


A problem answering this question is if the illusion magic has mental/sensory influence. (I am not going to be referencing any actualization here, I'll explain why at the end.)
An illusionist without any ability to influence the mind or senses creating a house? They may be able to hide the rain or snow visually, but they will feel it falling onto themselves.
An illusionist that can fool the senses? They will still be hit by rain or snow. But they can make it not feel like it is. They may make themselves feel warm. But they won't be.


There is no physical aspect of illusion magic- it is just that. An illusion. Think of it as a trick of the light brought about by magic, they use mana to fool the mind into thinking things are their. But they aren't.


Bystanders generally should be able to see the illusion, unless the illusion is specifically made only to be seen by the single target.

But for illusion magic. Their is no impact- it is only the appearance of something happening- otherwise it isn't an illusion...


You can do whatever you'd like with your own story. But these fake elemental effects are interesting, but for it to be illusion magic. Then they need to not actually cause real harm. Maybe they could be illusions that effectively cause harm- convincing the target that they are hurt. But they will still be perfectly healthy.

What you want to do is beyond the scope of illusion magic- it is something known as actualization. In which magic creates these objects or heat. I personally don't love the applications I know of and prefer illusion magic being related to mind magics.

Consider making the ability to copy these spells more than just... I want fireball. Woosh. I want fireray. Woosh. Their needs to be more than just copying it. Think of the fact that these fire mages need to study and train fire magic. This is just a layman using illusions/actualization to copy them. Your character should not be better than any other just as trained mages in their own field. (Also don't give them the ability to heal- just let them summon fire or solidify mana at most.)

I wonder if it would be better to create a different element then that can do things like simulate reality? or simulate other elements?

I like the idea of both these versions. Like, having a MIND ONLY illusion element seems very useful and real. But it also seems like it would be interesting to also have some other element that can simulate temporary creations also. But what would this second other version of temporary stuff be?

Have you ever read the Gaslighter book series? in that one his mind illusion concept seems similar to what you described.

I don't think there's any reason that both concepts could exist but maybe it would be better to separate them and call them something else. I also realize I didn't understand illusion magic concepts in fantasy worlds very well.

Thanks.

I still hope to see what other comments show up here. :) And feel free to reply me.

 

[Empress_Omnii]

Have you ever read the Gaslighter book series?

I haven't

his mind illusion concept seems similar to what you described.

I have a much more in depth system than I shared for my ideal illusionist concept. What I was describing is more what I've seen most commonly.

I wonder if it would be better to create a different element then that can do things like simulate reality? or simulate other elements?

And yes. This is the way to go for what you want. There are actually a lot of magic systems that have ideas like this, they just aren't strictly illusion based.
Oftentimes if a character who uses illusions is weak, the way to strengthen them is to give them the ability to make their illusions real. Yet it often comes off as cheap and takes away their identity as an illusion based fighter.

I don't think there's any reason that both concepts could exist but maybe it would be better to separate them and call them something else.

It depends on worldbuilding. You should always consider who will be developing these magics, why were they created, who uses them and such questions.

But yes, these differing concepts are not exclusive. They just shouldn't share the same identity for how different they are. Maybe consider what you are developing materialization? While I'm not sure how good the wiki is. It might have some stuff similar to what you're making https://powerlisting.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Materializations

 

[BigBadBoi]

First off thank you all for reading this. Thanks for helping me work out physics for fantasy novels and chapters. And yes I may use some of the information in books or chapters for here. (I don't mind giving credit to anyone though if they feel they need it.)

SO ... here are some questions I had about some magic questions. Some of these have to do with the illusion element. And illusionists in magic. This is actually hard for me to understand. But the problem is it seems like illusionists and illusion magic would be very fun in a story setting as a 'job class' because it allows for more customization of effects than other magic types.

If an illusionist casts an illusion of house in a rain storm or snow storm, and then goes inside it to take shelter... what happens?

Do you think he would take FULL complete shelter from cold? Or should it be partial? Or partial according to level? I thought maybe it could also depend on level... but I'm hoping for some input.

And this is similar for other things. Like in some stories when an illusionist makes an illusion of a monster to attack someone... others seeing it as bystanders don't see it because they write it like its all happening in the mind of the person being attacked. But I don't really like this method of doing it because that kind of makes the 'illusion summons' NOT REAL. I think it would better if they were like in a state of maybe being 'half real' and tangible and visible by others. What do you think of this also?

And if you had an illusionist that makes their own spells from their imagination, then I suppose you could determine the damage by a % of the damage of the real element and spell its mimicking. But how do you determine if they can 'copy' other elements and spells and which ones? It seems like if you let them copy everything they can basically take like 50% damage copies of every element and have a huge spell arsenal. Like they could make a 'fake heal', a 'fake fireball', 'fake summons', etc... is that too OP?

In my favorite novel's setting, illusion magic is either just bending light and sounds to create fakes or full blown mind magic to fuck with your brain. Illusion magic is interesting but unless you mix in real attacks like traps, wires, projectiles, etc. purely using illusion magic is useless. It's an illusion after all. Unless your MC is the fucking demiurge and can bend reality and create shit just by thinking about it. But that's not illusion magic at this point.

 

[naosu]

In my favorite novel's setting, illusion magic is either just bending light and sounds to create fakes or full blown mind magic to fuck with your brain. Illusion magic is interesting but unless you mix in real attacks like traps, wires, projectiles, etc. purely using illusion magic is useless. It's an illusion after all. Unless your MC is the fucking demiurge and can bend reality and create shit just by thinking about it. But that's not illusion magic at this point.

LOL. Yes. And that's why its hard to understand sometimes. :O Thanks. At first I thought a simulated fake constructs made with illusion sounded the most idea. But then when I read Gaslighter I started to think.. no problem with mind magic to F with the brain and that way was cool too.

 

[CharlesEBrown]

A true illusion would provide no shelter but the person in the illusion would not "feel" the elements beating down on them (unless they realized it was an illusion), at least until it was too late.
However, some illusionists can create partially real illusions (Advanced Dungeons and Dragons called this "Shadow Magic" and had a progression for it), and that would provide minimal shelter - it would not block the dropping temperatures, but would stop the rain and maybe cut down or block the wind, depending on the caster's power.

 

[naosu]

A true illusion would provide no shelter but the person in the illusion would not "feel" the elements beating down on them (unless they realized it was an illusion), at least until it was too late.
However, some illusionists can create partially real illusions (Advanced Dungeons and Dragons called this "Shadow Magic" and had a progression for it), and that would provide minimal shelter - it would not block the dropping temperatures, but would stop the rain and maybe cut down or block the wind, depending on the caster's power.

OH! I never knew that. I had known about shadow magic but never really understood it before. Your explanation makes sense. I didn't know it had a progression system either. Very cool. For years I'd been like... 'shadow magic? huh? *scratching head.'

 

[CharlesEBrown]

OH! I never knew that. I had known about shadow magic but never really understood it before. Your explanation makes sense. I didn't know it had a progression system either. Very cool. For years I'd been like... 'shadow magic? huh? *scratching head.'

The lowest level of Shadow Magic allowed something like quarter power copying of spell effects and was a third level spell, I think. The mid-level was Demi-Shadow Magic which included summoning semi-real creatures and creating fifty percent real spells, and the highest level could create temporary structures or copy any lower level spell at almost full power. Or something like that - it's been well over a decade since I read those spells and even longer since I read the commentary explaining them.

 

[beast_regards]

If you go by the D&D logic, then:

Pull things out of the thin air is more conjuration than illusion, I think.

Illusions are often spells which create, well, illusions, intangible objects, false images, sound coming from nowhere.

Conjuration is the school makes thing appear. Materials, objects, even creatures. Summoning is conjuration.

Fireballs and such are evocations, for example.

(at least, that's how I imagine it)

... of course, if you don't want to go by D&D logic, feel free, it's your setting.

 

[Alski]

First off thank you all for reading this. Thanks for helping me work out physics for fantasy novels and chapters.

I take both your thanks and stopped reading

 

[Zagaroth]

One thing that can help is to not think of areas of magic as being discrete.

Let's use a winter sleet storm spell as an example.

This spell would fall under the categories of Storm, Wind/Air (as it relates to storm), Ice, Water, Seasons/Winter, and Nature.

So, an illusion-only spell is not going to do anything physically. But illusion has associations with both shadow and dream magic, as well as light magic.

An illusion spell might not be able to make a bridge you can walk over normally, but a 'rainbow bridge' spell creates something physical *enough* to walk across, but might not be physical if you tried to shelter under it to avoid a storm. That's because it's not just illusion, it is also light and dream, as possibly being considered liminal if it bridges a boundary created by a river or chasm. (Or transcends reality, as in the rainbow bridge to Asgard)

The way I treat all magical categorizations is as conveniences for the mortal mind. *cold* doesn't exist in any technical way, as cold is merely the absence of heat. So heat is the thing that exists, cold just means there is less heat than you are used to. But magic treats cold as a Thing/Concept that is as real as heat. This categorization is because we conceive of cold as a thing, which in turn shapes magic to allow magic to treat it as a thing.

For some people, Wood, Metal, and even Crystal can be considered elements, but for others, metal and crystal are merely sub elements of earth and wood is an elemental composite like all organic things. It's all about how you think of it.

The most powerful mages are those who smoothly switch between any categorization to use the concepts that are most useful at the moment, literally shifting the way they view reality.