Everybody's a DPS

[NotaNuffian]

Really never thought about this when reading VRMMORPGs, is this for real in actual raid parties? Like, I understand that tanks do attack for aggro and DPS is mostly on kiters, rogues and NOT designated healers and buff spammers because of mana issue.

From my limited view, FFXIV has no mana and it is just skill cooldowns that affect whether one can spam the skills or not. How applicable would it be in novels where the backrow is just DPSing in between heals and buffs?

 

[PancakesWitch]

Yeah this is mostly how modern MMO games are, everyone is just DPS and all other classes that dont deal enough damage are considered either niche or garbage. I am reflecting this into my own VRMMO novel as well, with a player base obssesed with dealing as much damage as possible, many Job Classes and Races are left behind because they dont deal enough damage. My mc in this story is someone not concentrated into this, and she does all the things that no player is interested in an MMO, such as crafting, gathering, making a farm, raising monster pets and summons, befriending NPC and even building a village.

 

[Irl_Rat]

As someone who plays moba games, I'd like to say that I absolutely despise healing, buffing, and tank metas.

In theory it can be a hyper strategic front to back fight that depends heavily on proper buffing, debuffing, positioning and other shit. In practice this only occurs in pro-play. In other levels of plays it's just two teams of morons playing like absolute dogs and boils down to whose carry was jerking off in the middle of a battlefield or whose tank is too busy trying to farm.

I'd much rather have a bunch of high damage fighters brawling it out in a hyper speed anime fight than the boring ass turtling shit that just amounts to the egirls spamming shields for their eboy hypercarries.

But this is my opinion for mobas and to a lesser extent turned based strategies. VRMMOs are the complete opposite rn since every player is an adhd egoist that doesn't want to engage in actual teamplay.

 

[BenJepheneT]

for a split second my eyes switched places with the S and the P and thought you were insinuating we're anything similar to this lolcow

 

[ThrillingHuman]

 

[wingedcatgirl]

Hi, I play XIV (critically acclaimed, free trial, level 60, award winning expansion pack Heavensward, you know the meme), allow me to infodump on you lmao

Buffs are a thing in XIV, but their cooldown is usually longer than their duration, so they form your "burst phase" - when you use all your buffs and most powerful attacks at once. (This is important because one job, the Ninja, has a move that makes the enemy take more damage for a few seconds, so everyone wants their burst phase to line up with their Ninja's Trick Attack.) Most jobs have just a few buffs, and most of them apply to the user only. There's no "buffing jobs" - if you're in combat, your goal is to kill the enemy, and that means dealing damage. If you have a buff, it's part of your damage rotation. Square-Enix does their best to balance the game so every combat job is viable in its role, and they usually do a good job of this. Even when everyone can agree that this or that job is the "worst", it's still good enough - even at the bleeding edge, like world-first raiders, a "bad" job that you play well is always better than a "good" job you play badly.

Crafters, gatherers, housing, gardening, pets, and lore are all valued parts of the game, and there's not really anything that "nobody cares" about. (Except for Verminion.) But they're very much separate from combat.

I'm vaguely aware that things worked differently in older MMOs, like Everquest, but modern MMOs are... streamlined, would be the nice way to put it. (The mean way would be "dumbed down".)

 

[NotaNuffian]

Yeah this is mostly how modern MMO games are, everyone is just DPS and all other classes that dont deal enough damage are considered either niche or garbage. I am reflecting this into my own VRMMO novel as well, with a player base obssesed with dealing as much damage as possible, many Job Classes and Races are left behind because they dont deal enough damage. My mc in this story is someone not concentrated into this, and she does all the things that no player is interested in an MMO, such as crafting, gathering, making a farm, raising monster pets and summons, befriending NPC and even building a village.

So a LARPer? Or casual casual player?

As someone who plays moba games, I'd like to say that I absolutely despise healing, buffing, and tank metas.

In theory it can be a hyper strategic front to back fight that depends heavily on proper buffing, debuffing, positioning and other shit. In practice this only occurs in pro-play. In other levels of plays it's just two teams of morons playing like absolute dogs and boils down to whose carry was jerking off in the middle of a battlefield or whose tank is too busy trying to farm.

I'd much rather have a bunch of high damage fighters brawling it out in a hyper speed anime fight than the boring ass turtling shit that just amounts to the egirls spamming shields for their eboy hypercarries.

But this is my opinion for mobas and to a lesser extent turned based strategies. VRMMOs are the complete opposite rn since every player is an adhd egoist that doesn't want to engage in actual teamplay.

I like your thinking. Nothing says dakka than more dakka and I will be frank, when I watch lets play, I felt that I was in an alien world with the announcer screaming jargons after jargons until I stop watching.

I do like seeing beam spams though.

for a split second my eyes switched places with the S and the P and thought you were insinuating we're anything similar to this lolcow

View attachment 13145

First time I see this guy and after a quick google, my thought is just "meh, another whore."

 

[Lloyd]

If your healers and buffer classes can do dps then there is no point to dps classes. It would just create an imbalance because it gives those classes too much utility / versatility. And even if you have a hybrid class, specialists are almost always better because of how min maxing works.

 

[Irl_Rat]

I like your thinking. Nothing says dakka than more dakka and I will be frank, when I watch lets play, I felt that I was in an alien world with the announcer screaming jargons after jargons until I stop watching.

I do like seeing beam spams though.

Maybe I'm just reaching but a lot of novels seem to have mcs that are "assassin/skirmishers" "healers/utility" or "mage/uber op does everything magic." It seems like the melee juggernaut has been reduced to a villain or side character class now, possibly because older works had this a lot like Conan the barbarian.

Yes I know that a lot of stories want to do the friendship and teamwork balanced party, but I just happen to favor being the raidboss but melee instead of a spellcaster.

I'm probably just delusional and haven't read enough tho.

 

[Tsuru]

Really never thought about this when reading VRMMORPGs, is this for real in actual raid parties? Like, I understand that tanks do attack for aggro and DPS is mostly on kiters, rogues and NOT designated healers and buff spammers because of mana issue.

From my limited view, FFXIV has no mana and it is just skill cooldowns that affect whether one can spam the skills or not. How applicable would it be in novels where the backrow is just DPSing in between heals and buffs?

Try the free PSO2:NGS on steam.
Imagine TERA but anime and mega fast gameplay.
But SEGA is retarded and badly taking care of it.
Probably could write a book named "How to wrongly take care of a [chicken laying golden eggs] game"

Also. Interestingly, because sega hated that in PSO2 everyone focused on dps, they made some defensive stuff secretly mega op. AND because players still focus on atk so much, some the defensive stuff (but 5% lower dps) are cheap.

Btw SEGA got a fetish for magic. Just like most companies and game devs. coughDIABLOcough

 

[PancakesWitch]

If your healers and buffer classes can do dps then there is no point to dps classes. It would just create an imbalance because it gives those classes too much utility / versatility. And even if you have a hybrid class, specialists are almost always better because of how min maxing works.

the problem is that modern mmo are just giving healing and other things to DPS, so healers and support are becoming even more useless. even more, end game players can easily just drink potions for health anyways, a player dedicated to heal is useless in most cases, you would rather have another DPS dealer in place of that support

 

[CheertheDead]

Really never thought about this when reading VRMMORPGs, is this for real in actual raid parties? Like, I understand that tanks do attack for aggro and DPS is mostly on kiters, rogues and NOT designated healers and buff spammers because of mana issue.

From my limited view, FFXIV has no mana and it is just skill cooldowns that affect whether one can spam the skills or not. How applicable would it be in novels where the backrow is just DPSing in between heals and buffs?

In novels and manhwa and manga and manhua, I see no evidence against what you said.
DPS is literally the king. Anything else are just side characters like me in the life of my family pet cat.
Tank is literally shit. Every novel or fiction work I know of said Tank is fucking important and shit. The introduction chapter has the tank bash an ogre into two. Well, guess what happen when the situation really need him? They are just as useless as everyone else. They can't even do their job properly.

Yeah this is mostly how modern MMO games are, everyone is just DPS and all other classes that dont deal enough damage are considered either niche or garbage. I am reflecting this into my own VRMMO novel as well, with a player base obssesed with dealing as much damage as possible, many Job Classes and Races are left behind because they dont deal enough damage. My mc in this story is someone not concentrated into this, and she does all the things that no player is interested in an MMO, such as crafting, gathering, making a farm, raising monster pets and summons, befriending NPC and even building a village.

Indeed.
Why needs tank when you move so fast enemies can't damage you?
Why need healer when you don't even lose hit points in the first place?
Why need support if you have buff in your own class?
In those novels, the issue of logistics and tactics is too difficult for the author so they are completely ignored.

As someone who plays moba games, I'd like to say that I absolutely despise healing, buffing, and tank metas.

In theory it can be a hyper strategic front to back fight that depends heavily on proper buffing, debuffing, positioning and other shit. In practice this only occurs in pro-play. In other levels of plays it's just two teams of morons playing like absolute dogs and boils down to whose carry was jerking off in the middle of a battlefield or whose tank is too busy trying to farm.

I'd much rather have a bunch of high damage fighters brawling it out in a hyper speed anime fight than the boring ass turtling shit that just amounts to the egirls spamming shields for their eboy hypercarries.

But this is my opinion for mobas and to a lesser extent turned based strategies. VRMMOs are the complete opposite rn since every player is an adhd egoist that doesn't want to engage in actual teamplay.

I rather play a more tactical game than a third-person shooters. There are more than enough of those shooting games already.

Dota though is heavily leaned onto dps.

Back in dota 1 (6.48), know what I build for Pit Lord? Double Battle Fury right out of the gate. Not a single other item except some mana potions, healing salves, ironwood branches, and boots of speed. Pit Lord singlehandedly held and sometimes push the bottom tower all by himself against 3 other heroes. Even Ursa ran from him in early level. The best way I saw people dealt with my pit lord is doubling down on damage and throw everything at me. Healing is barely able to keep them alive when Pit lord has the highest AOE spell dps in early game. This is the reason for countless nerf patch later on and horrendous amount of buff on other characters for the next 50 patches.

Maybe I'm just reaching but a lot of novels seem to have mcs that are "assassin/skirmishers" "healers/utility" or "mage/uber op does everything magic." It seems like the melee juggernaut has been reduced to a villain or side character class now, possibly because older works had this a lot like Conan the barbarian.

Yes I know that a lot of stories want to do the friendship and teamwork balanced party, but I just happen to favor being the raidboss but melee instead of a spellcaster.

I'm probably just delusional and haven't read enough tho.

Yep. It's something I want to see a change on.

 

[PancakesWitch]

I hate how everyone is just talking about mobas when the conversation was originally about rpg mmo games such as final fantasy 14... Its not the same guys, a moba is something on the go, you can pick and choose a character easily, mmorpg games need a lot of time invesment into building a character and even money and other things. Mobas are way more flexible in terms of roles because of that, you don't need to build a character as detailed as mmorpg, you just pick, choose, practice and done... I can see that not many have actual expereince in mmorpg and think that mobas are somehow comparable...

 

[CheertheDead]

I hate how everyone is just talking about mobas when the conversation was originally about rpg mmo games such as final fantasy 14... Its not the same guys, a moba is something on the go, you can pick and choose a character easily, mmorpg games need a lot of time invesment into building a character and even money and other things. Mobas are way more flexible in terms of roles because of that, you don't need to build a character as detailed as mmorpg, you just pick, choose, practice and done... I can see that not many have actual expereince in mmorpg and think that mobas are somehow comparable...

Isn’t the conversation about novel and not mmorpg?

 

[Irl_Rat]

I hate how everyone is just talking about mobas when the conversation was originally about rpg mmo games such as final fantasy 14... Its not the same guys, a moba is something on the go, you can pick and choose a character easily, mmorpg games need a lot of time invesment into building a character and even money and other things. Mobas are way more flexible in terms of roles because of that, you don't need to build a character as detailed as mmorpg, you just pick, choose, practice and done... I can see that not many have actual expereince in mmorpg and think that mobas are somehow comparable...

I talked about mobas because they better reflect a large player base competing against one another with the various builds. My opinion remains the same for rpg mmo games since I'm a adhd fuck.

In fact, you could argue that the detailed character creation and building process of a mmorpg exacerbates the problems of dps and other builds. Because if the game is even slightly unbalanced because one item or skill has better percentages then it leads to players theory crafting wild fucking shit. Because instead of quickly picking things up on a moba and looking into the meta builds, I end up theory crafting on a spreadsheet for days to find how many percentage modifiers I can stack on top of one another to maximize my aoe dmg to clear mobs while still keeping enough dmg to ream the boss. And god help me if those percentage modifiers stack multiplicatively instead of just flat stacking. Or if the devs overlooked some whack interaction like the Skyrim vampire necromage situation.

In short, the rise of dps is due to the changing wants of the playerbase. And the method of execution is just better numbers for damage builds from developers. Because even boring ass abilities are op if the numbers are good.

 

[owotrucked]

The best crowd control is death. The best healing is killing the opponent before they move.

In novels, you don't really want to bore readers with filler attacks during cool downs. You have to allocate words to things according to how impactful they are. So you'll often want to highlight each role's specialty. Just 'tell' about the filler attacks and 'show' their cool moves.

If you want to show the healers contribute to dps, you can make a healing circle that damages enemies, or healing that procs on hit. Just look at D&D, clerics can wack people with mace or flashing lights in enemies eyes for emotional damage.

Trinity system (tank heal and sustain dps) is only relevant for low lethality fight where it takes an hour to kill a boss.
Moba have low hp pools. Burst dps is much more important, which competes directly with that trinity system. Teamfights may not last long enough for the trinity system to be slightly useful. It's like switching from a swordfight to a gun duel (people get oneshot left and right)

 

[NotaNuffian]

Isn’t the conversation about novel and not mmorpg?

Yes.

I talked about mobas because they better reflect a large player base competing against one another with the various builds. My opinion remains the same for rpg mmo games since I'm a adhd fuck.

In fact, you could argue that the detailed character creation and building process of a mmorpg exacerbates the problems of dps and other builds. Because if the game is even slightly unbalanced because one item or skill has better percentages then it leads to players theory crafting wild fucking shit. Because instead of quickly picking things up on a moba and looking into the meta builds, I end up theory crafting on a spreadsheet for days to find how many percentage modifiers I can stack on top of one another to maximize my aoe dmg to clear mobs while still keeping enough dmg to ream the boss. And god help me if those percentage modifiers stack multiplicatively instead of just flat stacking. Or if the devs overlooked some whack interaction like the Skyrim vampire necromage situation.

In short, the rise of dps is due to the changing wants of the playerbase. And the method of execution is just better numbers for damage builds from developers. Because even boring ass abilities are op if the numbers are good.

Opf, so how's your ADHD? Controlled yet?

The best crowd control is death. The best healing is killing the opponent before they move.

In novels, you don't really want to bore readers with filler attacks during cool downs. You have to allocate words to things according to how impactful they are. So you'll often want to highlight each role's specialty. Just 'tell' about the filler attacks and 'show' their cool moves.

If you want to show the healers contribute to dps, you can make a healing circle that damages enemies, or healing that procs on hit. Just look at D&D, clerics can wack people with mace or flashing lights in enemies eyes for emotional damage.

Trinity system (tank heal and sustain dps) is only relevant for low lethality fight where it takes an hour to kill a boss.
Moba have low hp pools. Burst dps is much more important, which competes directly with that trinity system. Teamfights may not last long enough for the trinity system to be slightly useful. It's like switching from a swordfight to a gun duel (people get oneshot left and right)

I liked Jocat's explanation of a healer. Good enough to keep them alive for a fight, having one HP is good enough.

Also, a necromancer is just a late healer, he is still doing his job in keeping the team "alive".