Ask me about fantasy lore history.

[Jemini]

I am something of an armature lore historian. I would not call myself an expert, nothing even close to it. In fact, a lot of the things I know have largely been from some casual web searches on whatever I happened to be interested in at the time.

However, I have over the process of a year or so somehow become a little bit of a repository for knowledge on the history behind various pieces of fantasy lore, including the first fantasy works to feature or lend new perspectives on various tropes in fantasy, the inspirations behind various famous works, and the original lore behind various fantasy races.

So, after bringing up the answers to various subjects of this nature, I figured it was about time to make a thread dedicated to this subject.

So, go ahead and ask me whatever you like in regards to the lore and origins behind various fantasy races or fantasy tropes.

Subjects I know a particularly large amount about are the primary D&D player character races, Dullahans, Banshees, Dragons, Fairies, and the 3 different takes on the various fire-birds. I have looked into the major turning points in the Fantasy and Isekai genres. If you ask me about any of those subjects, I can likely answer without even having to do a web search to supplement my answer. If you ask me about anything else, there's a chance I might have to do a search on the subject, but I will likely know some good key words you might not have thought about. (Web searching is something of a skill, and one that you tend to be better at if it is within a subject you are familiar on.)


EDIT: Special note, although I will reference the role D&D played in the development of the lore for a lot of fantasy creatures, I will NOT be answering any questions about D&D gameplay mechanics in this thread or talking about powers that various creatures have in regards to their D&D lore. This thread is about the history of the various fantasy races and their lore origins. If you want more specifics, I can even trace their lore origins across the various eras and how they were seen in popular culture in those various eras.

Any mention of D&D will primarily be toward either stating whether a fantasy race had it's origin in D&D, or if it pre-dated D&D and just had it's perception in popular lore changed by the game (because that game has had a very powerful influence on our perception of many fantasy races.)

 

[Aoi_Sora]

Anything about that can be categorized as "horny" monsters? Gotta expand my repertoire of degeneracy.

 

[Jemini]

Anything about that can be categorized as "horny" monsters? Gotta expand my repertoire of degeneracy.

In that department, I suppose we could go into the basic Succubus and Incubus. However, most monsters of this nature are actually meant as warnings about how harmful wanton sexuality can be, and how much damage can be caused. Every single one of them in their original lores almost invariably kill their sexual partners. The Incubus is about the only exception, with it leading to demon spawn instead which produces a rather ill fate to the woman in question.

In this department, you would also have the Sirines and the Harpies being in the same nature as the succubus as they are ultimately geared toward the same aspect of danger in sexuality, only with their lore not so explicitly going into the sexual aspects of their behaviors.

Essentially, any female creature that we, today, think of as being in the "horny" category is going to 100% kill you after the first night in their original lore. So, if you are looking for some lusty writing, I think you are going to be disappointed looking at the historical original lores.

I would say you are far better off just doing the conventional thing and smutting up your usual fantasy race creatures. Actually putting hot smut to the monster girls is 100% a product of the past 20 years or so.

 

[greyblob]

Are there any monsters that evolved or devolved from humans?
Also any records of monsters that were once human and are now cursed. I don't mean things like werewolves and such, more like some humans did something a god didn't like very much, and their punishment was to be turned into some monstrosity.

 

[Echimera]

In this department, you would also have the Sirines and the Harpies being in the same nature as the succubus as they are ultimately geared toward the same aspect of danger in sexuality, only with their lore not so explicitly going into the sexual aspects of their behaviors.

A usable comparison might be anglerfish for the horny. They lure in their (predominantly male) prey in with their looks and singing, but unlike Succubi and Incubi, it's less death by Snu Snu and draining of essence and more actual mauling and literal eating.



I'm not sure this really fits, but is there a term for the body plan things like centaurs and driders follow, with the lower animal part and the human torso taking the place of what would be the head of the animal? I've seen -taur a lot, but as the Minotaur aptly demonstrates, it's not really exclusive of this type of body plan.

 

[greyblob]

They lure in their (predominantly male) prey in with their looks and singing, but unlike Succubi and Incubi, it's less death by Snu Snu and draining of essence and more actual mauling and literal eating.

Sirens/Mermaids?

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Are there any monsters that evolved or devolved from humans?
Also any records of monsters that were once human and are now cursed. I don't mean things like werewolves and such, more like some humans did something a god didn't like very much, and their punishment was to be turned into some monstrosity.

Lilith and her children.

 

[greyblob]

Lilith and her children.

not exactly what I asked, but an interesting read nonetheless.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

not exactly what I asked, but an interesting read nonetheless.

Medusa was cursed.

 

[Reborn_Cat]

Question about moon elves? Also are dark elves the dark skinned ones or the black magic cave dwelling ones

 

[Jemini]

I'm not sure this really fits, but is there a term for the body plan things like centaurs and driders follow, with the lower animal part and the human torso taking the place of what would be the head of the animal? I've seen -taur a lot, but as the Minotaur aptly demonstrates, it's not really exclusive of this type of body plan.

There is no single unifying name for those types of creatures. There are way too many from too many different lore origins.

They do tend to be referred to as Taur-hybrids none the less, though. They are mostly from Greek mythology, and there are quite a few combinations that would surprise you.

One thing that may interest you, though, is that the human-horse taur-hybrids are actually named differently depending on whether they are male or female. Centaurs are the males, the females are called Anggitay.

Question about moon elves? Also are dark elves the dark skinned ones or the black magic cave dwelling ones

All variant elves are from either Dungeons and Dragons, or from some other gaming franchise that followed after Dungeons and Dragons.

Dark elves in particular though have a rather interesting history. I have already broken this one down rather recently in another thread though, so I will just quote myself from over there.

I will also include the sections on standard Elves, as well as Dwarves. Trust me, they are related to the story in regards to Dark elves.

Spoiler: Elves

The origin of Elves is a little uncertain as it arose out of German folklore and the Norse mythology of Scandanavia at around the same time.

In Norse mythology. elves are a race that was between the rank of the humans of Midguard and the gods of Asgard.

Meanwhile, in German folklore, they are a race of forest creatures who will kidnap young children and beguile lost travelers. They are not viewed as entirely a positive or negative force, rather they are viewed as a representation of the dangers of the forest. And, frankly, being taken by an elf is seen as better than being killed by a wild animal.

In the story of Riff Van Winkle, it is an elven ceremony that he stumbles upon, and it is the elven wine that knocks him out for 20 years (yet somehow remaining alive for that entire 20 years he stays asleep.)

Norse mythology actually does not have a whole lot to say about elves. Most of our modern understanding about Elves comes from a mixture of German folklore mixed with a sanitized re-interpretation of them by Tolkein. If you want to research further back on Elves, you can look at the works of Lord Dunsany or at stories from the original German folklore.

Spoiler: Dwarves

Dwarves are very similar to elves in terms of their mixed German and Norse origin. However, there is a very interesting thing to note about Dwarves. Norse mythology actually uses the terms "Dwarf" and "Dark elf" interchangeably. The two words were viewed as synonymous and were understood to refer to the same race.

In German folklore, Dwarves are described as a race of the forest who are short and youthful in appearance, and can easily be mistaken for an 11 year old child. This description of dwarves does not match the modern interpretation at all, and is a lot closer to our modern interpretation of a Hobbit or Halfling. We can assume that Tolkein's invention of Hobbits was likely a sorting out and separation of the German version of Dwarves from the Norse version which far more closely resembles our modern understanding of the race.

Norse mythology has a lot more to say about Dwarves/Dark elves than it does about it's standard Elves. It depicts them as a race that lives down in the mines and is skilled with blacksmithing, very closely resembling our modern-day interpretation of them. Norse mythology does not, however, make any mention of their height relative to a human.

Dwarves are very prominently featured in Das Reingold, the 1st entry in Wagner's famous Norse-based opera trilogy known collectively as "The Ring Cycle" (The ring cycle also almost entirely inspired the core elements, including the main plot, of Tolkein's "The Lord of the Rings.")

Spoiler: Dark elves

Dark elves deserve special mention at this point, because their origin is a little special.

Dark elves as an independent race is something that has a very strange history. As mentioned on the section about Dwarves, Norse mythology used the terms "Dwarf" and "Dark elf" interchangeably, but it was generally understood to refer to what we, today, understand to be Dwarves.

The first appearance of Dark elves as we understand them today actually comes from Dungeons and Dragons. However, their interesting history seems to come from a combination between the Norse use of the term to refer to Dwarves, as well as Tolkein's Orcs.

D&D dark elves and Tolkein's Orcs seem to have almost identical origins. They were once normal elves, but some evil thing happened that twisted and mutated them as they retreated underground.

Due to this strange origin, I found that dark elves needed this special mention.

 

[NotaNuffian]

Hi, I have tons of questions that quora, reddit and google can't really solved as some of the dnd creatures seem to be branched off out of the game and more on wonky folklores.

Here are some questions
1. Orog, a hybrid between Male Orc and FEMALE Orge, somehow the FOrc and MOrge is a different breed, but put aside first, is a half-orc. The lack of flavor text is what frustrates me as everyone in the half-orc shit is saying pure orc < any types of half-orc but fail to try and differentiate between the half-orc mixes.

2. Orc vs Orge vs Troll. This is a bit clearer as Orcs are idiots, Orges are bigger and dumber idiots and Trolls are Cockroach idiots. Still, the distinction is not as clear in DnD for my taste.

3. Aboleth VS Illithid. More on their psychic abilities as some in reddit compared the former as Charles Xavier while the latter as Jean Grey minusing Telepathy. What I wanted to know is that whether Aboleths also has the ability of Telekinesis like the Illithids or is that one race only having one type of psychic ability.

4. Does Succubus has the ability like a Vampire? Ie psychic abilities like Telepathy, Telekinesis, Mind Control? All I got from DnD is that the sex demon is a subclass to changling with polymorphic capability.

 

[Reborn_Cat]

There is no single unifying name for those types of creatures. There are way too many from too many different lore origins.

They do tend to be referred to as Taur-hybrids none the less, though. They are mostly from Greek mythology, and there are quite a few combinations that would surprise you.

One thing that may interest you, though, is that the human-horse taur-hybrids are actually named differently depending on whether they are male or female. Centaurs are the males, the females are called Anggitay.


All variant elves are from either Dungeons and Dragons, or from some other gaming franchise that followed after Dungeons and Dragons.

Dark elves in particular though have a rather interesting history. I have already broken this one down rather recently in another thread though, so I will just quote myself from over there.

I will also include the sections on standard Elves, as well as Dwarves. Trust me, they are related to the story in regards to Dark elves.

So it's safe to say the cave dwelling one in more correct, cause when I was small I had this impression of dark elves being these tall, pale skinned, jewel loving, black magic practitioners and always got confused by the dark skinned ones.

 

[Jemini]

Hi, I have tons of questions that quora, reddit and google can't really solved as some of the dnd creatures seem to be branched off out of the game and more on wonky folklores.

Here are some questions
1. Orog, a hybrid between Male Orc and FEMALE Orge, somehow the FOrc and MOrge is a different breed, but put aside first, is a half-orc. The lack of flavor text is what frustrates me as everyone in the half-orc shit is saying pure orc < any types of half-orc but fail to try and differentiate between the half-orc mixes.

2. Orc vs Orge vs Troll. This is a bit clearer as Orcs are idiots, Orges are bigger and dumber idiots and Trolls are Cockroach idiots. Still, the distinction is not as clear in DnD for my taste.

3. Aboleth VS Illithid. More on their psychic abilities as some in reddit compared the former as Charles Xavier while the latter as Jean Grey minusing Telepathy. What I wanted to know is that whether Aboleths also has the ability of Telekinesis like the Illithids or is that one race only having one type of psychic ability.

4. Does Succubus has the ability like a Vampire? Ie psychic abilities like Telepathy, Telekinesis, Mind Control? All I got from DnD is that the sex demon is a subclass to changling with polymorphic capability.

Ok, so, I'm not really answering D&D gameplay questions. Those are a complete mess, and it's made all the murkier by the edition issues. If you want my opinion on the subject, D&D lore has just become a complete unapproachable and impenetrable mess ever since Wizards of the Coast got ahold of it. They keep coming out with new editions, and there are SO many differences between 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition that they may as well be completely different games. I simply do not have time to keep up with the mess that Wizards has made of the game.

TSR (the original creators of D&D, and the makers of 1st and 2nd edition) at least had some consistency between the different editions as though they were different iterations of the same game. They also tried to pay some attention to the original lore these creatures were based off of. (Although I have to say I am not a fan of what they did with Bahamut and Tiamat. Although, I suppose we wouldn't have Final Fantasy Bahamut without D&D Bahamut.)


For original lore, there's no such thing as Orcs. Orc is just a linguistically different term to refer to Ogres. So, Orc and Ogre are the same creature.

It was Tolkein who created the distinction between Orcs and Ogres that we know of today. He essentially created the Orc race, and gave it the back-story of Orcs being corrupted and magically changed Elves.

TSR, when they were making Dungeons and Dragons, later got ahold of Tolkein's orcs and gave them a new origin, making them into their own completely independent fantasy race with no off-shoot elf origin. (In a way though, Tolkein's Orcs also became something of an inspiration for TSR's interpretation on Dark Elves.)


Trolls, historically, are very different creatures from the version we got in D&D. They do not have a healing factor. However, something the historical trolls DO have that was not in D&D is that they turn to stone in the sunlight. That's only some interpretations on trolls though, but it was a fairly popular interpretation.

For the most part, Trolls were just these strange monstrous creatures that would inhibit protagonists in various folk-tales in many English-origin tales. Generally, they would be impossibly strong and defeating them in a contest of strength would be infeasible for the protagonist. So, they would have to somehow use their wit in order to defeat a troll.

Historical trolls are on the dull-witted side, however, they were a LOT smarter than the D&D version. I would put them on par with a 70 IQ human.

EDIT: (Another thing to note about Trolls is that they historically are not portrayed as mindlessly violent, and often actually like to engage in conversation. They usually act like some form of street-thug, shaking people down for money or some other various things using their overpowering strength to get what they want. Ultimately though, it is their peculiar combination of dull-wit and liking conversation that tends to get them in trouble.)

EDIT: (Ultimately, if you go to historical lore, there is zero difference between Orcs and Ogres. They are literally the same creatures by different names. Meanwhile, it is hard to differentiate between Trolls and Ogres as there are few distinctions there as well. For the most part, it looks like Trolls are just more comically portrayed versions of Ogres. Their features and abilities seem largely identical, with the only real difference being the sorts of stories they appear in.)


In regards to Aboleths, Illithids, and Succubie, that's a subject I am going to have to research as to whether or not there is any pre-D&D lore I can give you. I mean, I know for a fact the Succubus existed before D&D, but I don't know much about their lore beyond the demonic origin, and the sex-to-death thing. I wouldn't count on there being a lot of specifics though. Anything from before Bahm Stoker's Dracula tends to be shy on specifics so far as powers and abilities go.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

4. Does Succubus has the ability like a Vampire? Ie psychic abilities like Telepathy, Telekinesis, Mind Control? All I got from DnD is that the sex demon is a subclass to changling with polymorphic capability.

Succubus are dream demons or demons of dreams. They are not vampires and don't have powers like vampires. Most similarities end up with the fact that both succubus and female vampires are depicted as beauties, and both of them suck.

 

[Jemini]

So it's safe to say the cave dwelling one in more correct, cause when I was small I had this impression of dark elves being these tall, pale skinned, jewel loving, black magic practitioners and always got confused by the dark skinned ones.

Lol, wow. Well, I don't think the D&D versions are Jewel-loving, but in a funny way that's actually incredibly accurate to their Norse origins considering their Norse origins were actually an alternate name for Dwarves.

Anyway, yeah, the version that is just Elves with a very dark tan are inventions of Japanese fantasy. And, it's fairly pointless in my opinion. What is the point of even calling them an alternate race if the only thing different about them is skin color? Literally, the Japanese version of Dark Elves do absolutely everything in their culture the same as High Elves. Skin color is literally the one and only difference.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

Anything from before Bahm Stoker's Dracula tends to be shy on specifics so far as powers and abilities go.

If you are going to research this, you might want to check out "The Vampire" and "The family of the Vourdalak" by Aleksey Konstantinovich Tolstoy. Though I doubt those two novellas will help you out with understanding the powers and abilities. Also, check out the following monsters, Vourdalak and Upiór.

 

[Jemini]

In regards to Aboleths, Illithids, and Succubie, that's a subject I am going to have to research as to whether or not there is any pre-D&D lore I can give you. I mean, I know for a fact the Succubus existed before D&D, but I don't know much about their lore beyond the demonic origin, and the sex-to-death thing. I wouldn't count on there being a lot of specifics though. Anything from before Bahm Stoker's Dracula tends to be shy on specifics so far as powers and abilities go.

Ok, I just did a little bit of poking around. Just as I had thought, Aboleths and illithids both have their origins in Dungeons and Dragons. They are creatures 100% invented for and by that game.

I even poked around the monsters of Lovecraft for a little while. I found Aboleths mentioned, but the article I found on them specifically stated they were from D&D. There was zero mention of illithids on any non-D&D related site.

If you are going to research this, you might want to check out "The Vampire" and "The family of the Vourdalak" by Aleksey Konstantinovich Tolstoy. Though I doubt those two novellas will help you out with understanding the powers and abilities. Also, check out the following monsters, Vourdalak and Upiór.

What I am saying is that Dracula goes into a great deal of detail on the powers that a Vampire has. And, in that, Bahm Stoker is a little bit of a trail-blazer. Before he did this, most monstrous creatures are not described in much detail in regards to their power-sets. Physical characteristics are often given in great detail, but power-sets are not something that old-time lore really got all that concerned about.

The Succubus lore pre-dates Dracula by quite a bit, so what I am saying is that I highly doubt I am going to find any good details on specifically what a Succubus can and can't do beyond killing men with sex. I can very easily come up with a list of Vampiric powers as long as my arm thanks to Bahm Stoker, but the Succubus would be a different deal all together.

 

[RepresentingWrath]

What I am saying is that Dracula goes into a great deal of detail on the powers that a Vampire has. And, in that, Bahm Stoker is a little bit of a trail-blazer. Before he did this, most monstrous creatures are not described in much detail in regards to their power-sets. Physical characteristics are often given in great detail, but power-sets are not something that old-time lore really got all that concerned about.

The Succubus lore pre-dates Dracula by quite a bit, so what I am saying is that I highly doubt I am going to find any good details on specifically what a Succubus can and can't do beyond killing men with sex.

Oh, you were talking about succubus. I thought you were going to look into creatures that were before Vampires. My bad.

 

[CupcakeNinja]

No