Add Interaction with Reviews

[Funatic]

Hello,

I'd like to suggest that the ability to comment on a Review would be added. This is primarily because of an issue I've come across multiple times in the past, albeit not yet on this site. That issue being annoyed readers quitting the story and then slandering it in every way that comes to their mind, regardless of accuracy.

At the point that such a Review is written, there are, under the current system, only two ways of recourse. One, I can write a PM to the writer of the Review and ask for inaccuracies to be ammended. From multiple experiences, I can tell you that this leads to the Review in question becoming simply more mocking in tone and, if its not already the lowest rating possible, it being lowered to that. This usually leads to action two having to be taken, which is to report the Review and wait for the removal.

Of course, there is also option three "ignore it" but that is, as a writer, absolutely against my interests. The mathematics of one bad Review dragging down the average aside, which I personally don't care about too much but is still an insentive to seek removal, it also means that future readers checking the Review section could be misinformed and decide not to read my story because of it.

I'm not a fan of deleting Reviews, even the extremely low rating and purely bitter ones. For one, because I just dislike deleting other people's words in general. More pragmatic to the situation, it gives ammunition to a resenting crowd, given that their opinion is now being suppressed. I also think there are still some valid criticism to be extracted from a lot of those bad Reviews. Having to decide between having something misinforming written on the very page of my story or becoming (at least a minor) censor because the road of debate is not available irks me to no end.

Having gone over all the negatively motivated reasons why I want this, I also want to say that, aside from corrections, praising thorough rewords through something more than a tiny like button is a better insentive for readers to write them. It would allow Reviewers to ask questions in their Reviews and for me to answer them if they were in the story (Of course with marked spoilers and all that).

So far my rationale.

As for implementation, there are three models I would suggest. I will list them from most to least favourite.

Free for All Review Comment Section - The Review acting as the start of a discussion will simple be able to be commented on like a chapter. I do get that this could lead to shouting matches, it is the internet after all, but I also think that free conversation is the best way to address most things.

Reviewer-Author Comment Section - Only give the Author and the writer of the Review to comment on the Reviews. This would basically make it a public PM exchange, which I don't expect to go much different than my aforementioned experiences. The advantage, however, is that Reviewer being unreasonable (or the Author, also totally possible) is available for people to see. It would eliminate the need to delete negative Reviews.

Author "Super" Like/Dislike - The Author has a special extra button for Reviews on his story that marks a Review as "Helpful" or "Inaccurate" or some other dichotomy of words. Doesn't even need to be limited to two. I personally find this to be a measure short of an actual solution, but its better than the status quo.

None of these systems would influence rating in any fashion. I've come to accept that some people just leave 0,5 Stars on anything that did half a thing they didn't like and even if the Reviews are deleted, they just slap it on as a regular Rating. If the story keeps updating and is good, it will average out somewhere, that's just how it is. It's also not like there aren't people who rate everything that they like five stars. Basically, I'm saying I don't care about the Rating aspect of Reviews (That is not to say I want them removed from them, they're still a part of the opinion, after all). Feel free to disagree.

I'm going to attach a poll just for people make their thoughts on this easily quantifiable in numbers.

Have a nice day,

Funatic

 

[RepresentingCaution]

People have rated my story, but so far nobody on this site has stepped up to do an actual review, so this isn't really an issue for me yet. I think they're too chicken to step up to the plate, which is fine by me since I've had lots of feedback on other sites.

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

People have rated my story, but so far nobody on this site has stepped up to do an actual review, so this isn't really an issue for me yet. I think they're too chicken to step up to the plate, which is fine by me since I've had lots of feedback on other sites.

You are a crazy author that enjoys 1 star ratings for masochistic reasons I suppose. I can imagine why people find it hard to review your story.

 

[RepresentingCaution]

You are a crazy author that enjoys 1 star ratings for masochistic reasons I suppose. I can imagine why people find it hard to review your story.

Lots of people have beef with my subject matter and rate it without even reading it. What matters is that I know it's worth more than that, and the people who actually read it know it's worth more than that, but since the first few people here gave me a one-star rating, I figured I might as well have some fun with it. You're welcome to join the party! ?

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

Lots of people have beef with my subject matter and rate it without even reading it. What matters is that I know it's worth more than that, and the people who actually read it know it's worth more than that, but since the first few people here gave me a one-star rating, I figured I might as well have some fun with it. You're welcome to join the party! ?

I don't give 1-star ratings for such futile reasons. I only give them if stories insult my intelligence. And if they are harem stories with big boobed anime girls. They are on my target list as well. *annoyed cat*

 

[TowerGuy]

I think it would be better to add a simple dislike button to reviews, one anyone can use, so you and your faithful readers can downvote inaccurate reviews. Then make it so reviews are ordered by the ones with most votes or something like that.

That way people can unite to either tell us authors our work sucks or to tell the reviewer their words suck.

 

[binarysoap]

At least on SH, all reviews are at least read over by a person, so it's harder for unjustified slander to get through.
That and basically no one leaves reviews here

 

[weakwithwords]

Who watches the watchers?

Many years ago, I tried discussing reviews-getting-reviewed with a few relevant staff in another site, but they were not receptive to the concept. They were already content with the helpful/not helpful buttons.

Those buttons can be abused, of course, by negative or positive trolls. They can be misused to represent like/dislike for the reviewer regardless of the review. Even when used as intended ... the review is helpful or not in planting preconceived notions?

Instead of five stars like with the ratings, reviews could just have three: recommended, neutral, not recommended. The review, something qualitative in contrast to quantitative ratings, should speak for itself and reflect the intensity instead.

Some authors are fragile. They should have the choice to fully disable ratings, reviews, and/or comments. Only fair since people have the choice not to read their works.

 

[Ace_Arriande]

No. All this really does is encourage petty slapping fights between authors and commenters in the review sections. Furthermore, without reading the story on their own, how is the potential reader looking at your comments in response to the review supposed to know that you're telling the truth? Why would your word be any more valid than theirs? All this would make you look like is somebody who can't handle criticism. It will be far easier to assume that an author is trying to say whatever they can to defend against a bad review, relying even on lying and misinformation, than to think that the reviewer is the one doing that. You're the one with more of a biased interest there.

Of course, there is also option three "ignore it" but that is, as a writer, absolutely against my interests. The mathematics of one bad Review dragging down the average aside, which I personally don't care about too much but is still an insentive to seek removal, it also means that future readers checking the Review section could be misinformed and decide not to read my story because of it.

Again, no. This is in your best interests. If a review is truly purposely slandering you or your novel to make people not to read it, and it's legitimate in having ill intent, report it. If it gets put back up, keep on reporting it until either the user either gives up or is banned. I do have a suggestion for this that I'll probably recommend in another thread - simply, not allowing people to re-review the same story if they already get a review removed for breaking any guidelines. Furthermore, as long as you maintain at least a 4.0 average rating, one bad review isn't going to mean much. Barely anybody even looks at reviews, especially with how out of the way they are on here. You are vastly overestimating how much reviews actually matter here. They matter a bit more on RR, but not here. Now, I can't speak on behalf of everybody and it's not like there are any studies that have been done on this matter, but seeing an author feel the need to defend themselves against some random little person's review would put me off from the story more than the review itself. That just tells me the author either doesn't have anything better to be doing or that they can't handle criticism, and I'm probably going to believe the negative reviewer even more than I already did if I see this.

Free for All Review Comment Section - The Review acting as the start of a discussion will simple be able to be commented on like a chapter. I do get that this could lead to shouting matches, it is the internet after all, but I also think that free conversation is the best way to address most things.

But how is this beneficial to the platform itself? Is implementing this going to improve the platform? Shouldn't we be reducing the risk of petty internet shouting matches rather than providing people with a means of having them? If they want to fight, they can go fight in the comments or in PMs. There's no need to muck up a review section with it.

Reviewer-Author Comment Section - Only give the Author and the writer of the Review to comment on the Reviews. This would basically make it a public PM exchange, which I don't expect to go much different than my aforementioned experiences. The advantage, however, is that Reviewer being unreasonable (or the Author, also totally possible) is available for people to see. It would eliminate the need to delete negative Reviews.

See above points.

Author "Super" Like/Dislike - The Author has a special extra button for Reviews on his story that marks a Review as "Helpful" or "Inaccurate" or some other dichotomy of words. Doesn't even need to be limited to two. I personally find this to be a measure short of an actual solution, but its better than the status quo.

This is just going to be used by authors to mark every positive review helpful and every negative review inaccurate. This just lets authors look biased and petty.

It's also not like there aren't people who rate everything that they like five stars.

I might disagree with everything else in your post, but thank you for at least acknowledging the side of it that many others choose to ignore.

Some authors are fragile. They should have the choice to fully disable ratings, reviews, and/or comments. Only fair since people have the choice not to read their works.

If they're so fragile that they can't handle a random person on the internet leaving a negative rating or review, then they shouldn't be posting their story on a platform that allows ratings. There is nothing stopping them from posting elsewhere, such as places without such a system, or only showing it to people who they trust. Though, if there's a compromise - such as removing a fiction that disables ratings from all ranking lists, trending, and recently updated, and can only be found in searches, then that could be fine.

 

[weakwithwords]

... and yet there is no dislike button. Disgusting facebook influence.

@Ace_Arriande, I disagree with you. I prefer the freedom of having choices. This is not a discussion, just a reaction. I will never support your views on that particular subject.

 

[Ral]

I think, simple reporting should work to iron these problems.

Not that many people makes reviews here, especially negative ones. Reviews are more trouble than they are worth.

Also, who is to say if a review is accurate or not? They are subjective. They are based on opinions and taste rather than quantities that can be measured.

Free for All Review Comment Section - Like in Webnovel? I don't really think that they work there, nor do I think this would work anywhere. The goal you want is to stop those annoyed readers who then slanders the story. I think, this would just encourage the behavior.

After all, their slander is an expression of their feelings for the story. The ability to comment is just more avenue to do this.

Sure there is free speech and all but, this is a review section and not exactly a place to held such conversation. I think it is a place for people to tell what they think of the story and not a place for people to talk about their opinions.

Maybe a separate place where people could talk about the story and such stuff (maybe with features like linking to reviews, chapters, comments and such), but not in the review section itself. Something like a more developed form of Latest Chapter Discussion in NUF.

Reviewer-Author Comment Section - I don't think this would also help with the annoyed-reader's-issue. I can see this as nothing more than a place for the author and the reviewer to butt heads. Their communication is also something that they should keep to themselves.

I don't think this would help negate the need to delete negative reviews, if there is really such a need. (I have to note though that negative reviews should not be held in contempt.) A review, after all, is an opinion. If a person hates a story, his expression of annoyance and why they hate it is actually an accurate expression of what they felt and think.

I think, the most a thing like this can do is to provide more discouragement to give negative reviews.

Author "Super" Like/Dislike - There is just no way that authors wouldn't abuse this at all.

Well, maybe something like Story Discussion section is a better solution? This would be something like the Latest Chapter Discussion in NUF but more inclusive with some nifty features too like subsections that would talk about characters or plot and other stuff or easy means of quoting or linking to reviews and comments. Essentially something like a mini forum for that specific story. At least, a feature like that is interesting and provides more content and things to do for the users of the platform, both the readers and the authors.

 

[BenJepheneT]

maybe a dislike button would be all that's needed. if you, as an author, truly want to express your disagreement with a review, you can always send a PM and have a discussion/arguement/rap battle. but if you'd rather have it publicly, i think a dislike button would suffice that.

 

[Funatic]

Again, no. This is in your best interests. If a review is truly purposely slandering you or your novel to make people not to read it, and it's legitimate in having ill intent, report it. If it gets put back up, keep on reporting it until either the user either gives up or is banned. I do have a suggestion for this that I'll probably recommend in another thread - simply, not allowing people to re-review the same story if they already get a review removed for breaking any guidelines. Furthermore, as long as you maintain at least a 4.0 average rating, one bad review isn't going to mean much. Barely anybody even looks at reviews, especially with how out of the way they are on here. You are vastly overestimating how much reviews actually matter here. They matter a bit more on RR, but not here. Now, I can't speak on behalf of everybody and it's not like there are any studies that have been done on this matter, but seeing an author feel the need to defend themselves against some random little person's review would put me off from the story more than the review itself. That just tells me the author either doesn't have anything better to be doing or that they can't handle criticism, and I'm probably going to believe the negative reviewer even more than I already did if I see this.

You must have used the wrong quote there, because it sounds like you're responding to Option 2 "Report it" rather than Option 3 "Ignore it". Because reporting it IS absolutely in my best interest. To try to knock on the remaining points:

1. The "strength" of the Reviews on mathemetical level doesn't matter to me, I have stated as much.
2. Maybe people here don't look much at Reviews. I don't have hard data on that.
3. Whether or not that defense against "one little person" is off-putting or not depends entirely on the author's conduct. Displaying which, to me, can only be a good thing.

But how is this beneficial to the platform itself? Is implementing this going to improve the platform? Shouldn't we be reducing the risk of petty internet shouting matches rather than providing people with a means of having them? If they want to fight, they can go fight in the comments or in PMs. There's no need to muck up a review section with it.

By removing the ability to have shouting matches, you also remove the ability to have thoughtful conversations and try to have agreements.

I am going to summarize the rest of my disagreements of your arguments in this line: I have actual faith in people. Some will misuse whatever tools you put at their disposals, that is always the case, but locking interaction for anyone else because of this is not the answer.

I think, simple reporting should work to iron these problems.

Not that people makes reviews here. Reviews are more trouble than they are worth. I don't bother with it.

Also, who is to say if a review is accurate or not? They are subjective. They are based on opinions and taste rather than quantities that can be measured.

No, Reviews are not entirely subjective and based on opinions. They do, in fact, contain objectively disprovable elements. Easy example, which has actually happened to me before:

"This story has a typo in every sentence." [Simplified statement]

Is that subjective? No, no it is not. I'm not stating here that it might be INACCURATE, but it is not SUBJECTIVE. It is an objective claim about measurable quality. Moving on.

"This story is a light-hearted comedy about a bunny warlock stuck in the far reaches of outer space, unable to find any carrots."

Would this be accurate underneath a story that's basically a Dark Souls rip-off, setting and all? No, it wouldn't be. There is such a thing as an objectively wrong opinion. A much easier example for this would be "I think the moon is made of cheese." You can think whatever you want, but you're also wrong. Of course all of those examples are 100% wrong and hyperbole, here is what will actually happen (usually).

A negative Review will contain about 50% accurate statements that, even if presented in a purely bitter way, still contain valid criticism. This half is a large chunk of the reason I want the Review system changed. The other 50% will contain statements that are either misinformed, half-true or deliberately misleading. Hell, we can even adjust those numbers to 90% and 10%. Should my ONLY viable way of recourse in such a situation seriously be the report button?

How is THAT not abusable? As an Author who thinks purely about success, there is no better system for me but to take EVERY excuse I can to scrub any negativity from the public perception, in words and in numbers.

I also want to state, again, that I am not one such author and that my stories are doing well. I want this entire system so I can STOP reporting people. I WANT the negative criticism and I want it in a fashion that I can try and extract the lessons from it without needing to confuse future readers with objectively inaccurate bits and bobs. If you'd let me, I would just disable the current Review system entirely and replace it with a "Come to my Discord and tell me what you thought there" link. That way, I could have in-depth discussions about what might be wrong.

Free for All Review Comment Section - Like in Webnovel? I don't really think that they work there, nor do I think this would work anywhere. The goal you want is to stop those annoyed readers who then slanders the story. I think, this would just encourage the behavior.

After all, their slander is an expression of their feelings for the story. The ability to comment is just more avenue to do this.

Sure there is free speech and all but, this is a review section and not exactly a place to held such conversation. I think it is a place for people to tell what they think of the story and not a place for people to talk about their opinions.

Maybe a separate place where people could talk about the story and such stuff (maybe with features like linking to reviews, chapters, comments and such), but not in the review section itself. Something like a more developed form of Latest Chapter Discussion in NUF.

I simply find myself thinking "Why would the Review section not be a place for the exchange of criticism?"

I suppose there is no value in discussing this point if we disagree so fundamentally.

Reviewer-Author Comment Section - I don't think this would also help with the annoyed-reader's-issue. I can see this as nothing more than a place for the author and the reviewer to butt heads. Their communication is also something that they should keep to themselves.

I don't think this would help negate the need to delete negative reviews, if there is really such a need. (I have to note though that negative reviews should not be held in contempt.) A review, after all, is an opinion. If a person hates a story, his expression of annoyance and why they hate it is actually an accurate expression of what they felt and think.

I think, the most a thing like this can do is to provide more discouragement to give negative reviews.

Most of this feels like a repeat of my initial rationale. I might be missing something? Anyway, I already presented my vehement disagreements with the subjectivity thing. This whole want for a different system is because I do NOT want to hold negative Reviews in contempt and delete them.

Author "Super" Like/Dislike - There is just no way that authors wouldn't abuse this at all.

Some would, most, I am willing to bet, wouldn't. Fundamentally, though, in what way could they meaningfully abuse this? I am not asking that the Reviews be alghorhythmically suppressed or promoted because of the Author's thoughts of it, is just a tool for the author to make his thoughts known.

At least on SH, all reviews are at least read over by a person, so it's harder for unjustified slander to get through.
That and basically no one leaves reviews here

Huh, that is interesting, I did not know that...

Am not sure how I feel about it, but my first instinct is to dislike any layer between my communications.

 

[weakwithwords]

@Funatic,

You might have faith in people, but is the same true for the majority? What about the minority? Just some days ago, two threads were locked and one of the persons involved rage quit the site. There's a reason why freeform discussions are encouraged to be held offsite.

// "This story has a typo in every sentence." [Simplified statement]

Something an editor should have noted before it can be criticized by a reviewer.

// How is THAT not abusable? As an Author who thinks purely about success, there is no better system for but to take EVERY excuse I can to scrub any negativity from the public perception, in words and in numbers.

Hence, how the devs convinced Mark Z. with the Like button and it has been a worldwide blight ever since. No Dislike button, hidden negativity.

The term review is something of a misnomer. The reviewer is indeed reviewing, but the tentative reader is being presented with information for the first time which can be misrepresentations like you keep iterating.

Here's the catch. Reviews like ratings are not accurate appraisals. However, they are working as intended as marketing hooks.

Anway, have to cut this short as my irl mom wants to talk to me.

 

[Funatic]

// "This story has a typo in every sentence." [Simplified statement]

Something an editor should have noted before it can be criticized by a reviewer.

You might want to go over what I said again. This was an example of an instance where a Reviewer said something that was objectively refutable. Whether its accurate or not is unimportant to the argument.

 

[weakwithwords]

You might want to go over what I said again. This was an example of an instance where a Reviewer said something that was objectively refutable. Whether its accurate or not is unimportant to the argument.

I only noted the editor before reviewer sequence. I neither refuted nor affirmed the objectivity aspect of your argument. I didn't reach that part as I went off to talk with my irl mother.

I don't get what you mean by objectively refutable. Are you attaching that modifier to distinguish from "subjective refutability"? You don't have to affirm if I guessed right.

There are four kinds of statements.

• facts
• falsehoods
• unverified claims
• opinions

The veracity of opinions can only be truly known by the one making it. e.g. I am hungry.

You won't like me when I'm hungry.

This seems like an unverified claim that can be verified as a fact or falsehood later, but note that the hunger part is an opinion.

edit: You liking or disliking me (for whatever reason) is also an opinion.

Ideally, reviews should only contain facts and opinions. Unfortunately, some people mistake unverified claims as opinions and of course, trolls dish out falsehoods to add to the chaos and fun.

 

[Ral]

No, Reviews are not entirely subjective and based on opinions. They do, in fact, contain objectively disprovable elements. Easy example, which has actually happened to me before:

"This story has a typo in every sentence." [Simplified statement]

Reviews are often exaggerated. They are often built on subjective feeling than actual measurements. Such statements are often made given those understandings. Essentially statements like that actually means "this story is full of typo."

Reviews, after all, are often written for other readers so they are often deliberately worded to be entertaining for other readers than to be informative.

I simply find myself thinking "Why would the Review section not be a place for the exchange of criticism?"

It is not.

You don't want to discuss, so I won't.

Most of this feels like a repeat of my initial rationale. I might be missing something? Anyway, I already presented my vehement disagreements with the subjectivity thing. This whole want for a different system is because I do NOT want to hold negative Reviews in contempt and delete them.

Then why the focus on the ability to control them? You might not exactly want the ability to delete them, but you want the ability to discourage them. You might only want to exert this over those slanderous reviews but there is no stopping others.

Disagree or not, reviews are very subjective and are not known for being objective. It is something written basing on the feel and preference of a reader. We have written reviews and we know that what we wrote there is not based on deep understanding and studies of the story in the manner of literary critiques or comprehensive tests as done by quality testers. It is just some bloke writing his unprofessional thoughts.

Some would, most, I am willing to bet, wouldn't. Fundamentally, though, in what way could they meaningfully abuse this? I am not asking that the Reviews be alghorhythmically suppressed or promoted because of the Author's thoughts of it, is just a tool for the author to make his thoughts known.

You trust people too much. If it can be abused, then it will be.

~~~~~~

I just don't think these solutions work that well.

If someone post a review to slander a story, the ability to comment on the review or to dislike it is not going to encourage the reviewer to change their review to be better or accurate or whatever.

The ability to comment on these reviews would only pit one's words against the others while also attracting attention because of the level of activity. Special author dislike also will also bring more attention. These are just not that good at solving the issues, in my opinion.

Nor does these will help avoid misinformation for future readers. The reviews could still exist and readers could still just believe them. As I said, these solutions kinda brings more attention to these reviews.

Not to mention, these brings in their own problems and issues that will bring more work for the SH team.

They are just, to me, not really good solutions. They are really just no better than the PM/reporting thing that we have.

Still, I agree with the issues you have and it would be good if we find a great solution for it. I just don't think these are the solutions you are looking for.

 

[Funatic]

Reviews are often exaggerated. They are often built on subjective feeling than actual measurements. Such statements are often made given those understandings. Essentially statements like that actually means "this story is full of typo."

Reviews, after all, are often written for other readers so they are often deliberately worded to be entertaining for other readers than to be informative.

Which is still an objective statement, which was my entire point...

Then why the focus on the ability to control them? You might not exactly want the ability to delete them, but you want the ability to discourage them. You might only want to exert this over those slanderous reviews but there is no stopping others.

Disagree or not, reviews are very subjective and are not known for being objective. It is something written basing on the feel and preference of a reader. We have written reviews and we know that what we wrote there is not based on deep understanding and studies of the story in the manner of literary critiques or comprehensive tests as done by quality testers. It is just some bloke writing his unprofessional thoughts.

I literally did not ask for the ability to control them, as you point out yourself the very next sentence. I do indeed want to discourage inaccuracies, you got me there.

"No stopping others" - Stopping them from what, exactly? Making massive fools out of themselves by overreacting in Review sections? I fail to see how this is a bad thing.

Whether or not I disagree what degree of subjectivity Reviews in general have is entirely besides the point I made. Reviews contain objective elements. Objective elements can be disproven and should be up for scrutiny.

///You trust people too much. If it can be abused, then it will be.

First off, I literally said that some people will abuse parts of the system, as they abuse part of the current system. It's an inherit risk in any system created and is unavoidable. Secondly, you did not answer my question HOW they would meaningfully abuse that particular one.


I would ask that you engage more with what I actually say and less with what you think I said.

 

[Ral]

First off, I literally said that some people will abuse parts of the system, as they abuse part of the current system. It's an inherit risk in any system created and is unavoidable. Secondly, you did not answer my question HOW they would abuse that particular one.

I don't know but that doesn't mean it can't. The best I can think of is to like only all the positive reviews so there would be more attention onto them.

I would ask that you engage more with what I actually say and less with what you think I said.

I see no point. I tried to address both what you actually said and what you might mean, as well as other things relating to the matter. If they aren't meaningful or useful to you, or you just don't agree with them, then that is the end of it.

I already given my thoughts. Take it as you will.

 

[TowerGuy]

People are more passionate about it than I'd guess.

Still think a dislike button would solve everything though.