Coping With Poor Reviews

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bulmabriefs144

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How do you do it? How deal with people who critique your work, when you can't have a civil discussion because they've blocked PMs and chatting? Like, you can't explain why you put this and that in your book because they are unavailable. Me, I want to be liked, even if it doesn't seem that way, so it hurts when someone unconditionally hates my stuff. And not just hates the stuff that I also thought was bad, but doesn't even bother to understand me.



This has to be a parody...


Real story: I received a brain aneurysm after reading just one chapter of this thing.


Now instead of telling you that you shouldn't read this, I'm just going to provide some quotes from the first chapter so you don't have to waste those few minutes of your life.


To get you up to speed, the first chapter introduces us to Ambrosia, one of this trilogy's characters, if not the main character. After that, she randomly gets gold while begging, and a few seconds later she already has an intervention with God where he marks her with a yin-yang-diagram.


Afterward though is where it gets really weird, the author just goes on random tangents about medicine and insurance, which don't seem to have any relation with the story or the world. Furthermore, it isn't marked as Ambrosia's delusions or exposition about the rules of fantasyland, meaning it could only be the author's self-insert thoughts disguised as exposition.

Actually, it's what is known as worldbuilding. I am describing how medicine developed in the 20th and 21st centuries from the perspective of someone in the 70th century where magic is real. In the 16th century, bloodletting was done. That's only four or five centuries of gap, right? Now think of 50 centuries and how different medicine might be.

For example:


But as belief in faith healing faded, along came the so-called "modern" medical era where the medical symbol (Rod of Asclepius) was confused with the commerce/thieves symbol (Caduceus), where one of these things had too many snakes. And it showed.


Huh? Is the author trying to set up some ancient shadow organization?


Back in those days (21st Century I guess) , treating just the symptoms was the norm and research was the exception, and doctors would actually be punished for doing their own research,


Huh??? We're talking about "modern" medicine, right? Not the middle ages where healers, medical practitioners, and scholars with more advanced knowledge than the church were hanged for being "witches".

Science always marches on, even fantasy science. The things you think are so sophisticated today are likely to be scoffed at tomorrow. And yes, I do tend to rant and go on tangents, but this section did have an important reason to be added. "How was Ambrosia healed?" I wanted to answer the question of how medicine works in this world. Being a fantasy world, it rejects what you see as "science" as backwards.

often losing licensing for questioning established dogma. For example, regarding cancer treatment, actual studies showed that immunosuppressants worsen cancer because cancer was a failing immune system. So while they could have treated people with immunotherapy, or used a diet approach (using herbs like ginger, raw garlic, cayenne pepper, basil, and turmeric as well as foods with antioxidant or probiotic properties like fresh vegetables, fish, milk/cheese/yogurt, and fresh fruit; all that and lowering sugar and radiated/burnt/processed foods),


Okay nope, it's just a pseudo-scientific rant. Watch out, everybody, author has discovered a cure for cancer. Why does author include that much detail?? Do they really think that?

The first chemotherapy was developed following exposure to mustard gas. It has a 90% fail rate, because the body makes stem cells against it. I can show you my research if you like. But you either believe it or you don't.

they instead prescribed three major treatments that were counterproductive and heavily suppressed other treatments. Despite the fact that radiation caused cancer, despite the fact that chemotherapy suppressed the immune system, and despite that all but the least invasive surgery made the body weaker, they went ahead and prescribed these treatments.

Gross oversimplification but believable, if you're also willing to believe that 60% of all humans are idiots. Why do you think we use chemotherapy if it is harmful to the immune system and health?????? Maybe because there's something more important to gain??? Maybe because the only treatment we have for cancer is the equivalent of a medical nuke??? Hey everybody look, Author has found a cure for cancer, just eat ginger lmao.

If you trust your medicine as though it can solve all problems, what happens when your doctor misdiagnoses you? Or gives you a medicine at an overdose? Yes, people do sometimes take drugs because they would like them to work, not because they do work.

But you've missed an important point here. This is an explanation of how people 5000 YEARS in the future are doing medicine. In Discworld, they used to think the world was round, but now know it's a disc on the back of four elephants riding on a turtle. The point being that an author can set up any rules to how science or medicine evolved that they like, and the reader is supposed to suspend their disbelief, even if it's hilarious.

What you want to believe outside of reading my book is up to you, but you've failed at reading the story, I'm afraid.

The medical system collapsed once people began to learn that roughly 75% of these same doctors would not do this on themselves.


Why hasn't it already collapsed if it was that bad, why did it persist that long if it was based on lies and deception???? This doesn't even make sense if we want to believe that this is part of the story and not the true thoughts of the author.

Because of trust. People like you trust the science, and keep taking medicine even if it makes you cough and gives you warts. Side effects? Who cares?!? "Modern" medicine has continued far longer than it should. I would have thought people would stop taking dangerous drugs long ago, but even a cursory glance at how doctors said thalidomide was "non-toxic" in 1958 despite awful birth defects, yeah that tells me that's not the case. Look up PFOA in your spare time.

And then there was insurance. Insurance normally worked but when medical insurance became mandated, it screwed with supply and demand. When everyone was made to buy it, people who never went to the doctor balked at the idea of paying expensive insurance because of people who smoked all the time. Nowadays, medical insurance doesn't exist, having been replaced by barter and sliding-scale pricing.


Yeah, lmao that's how profit-maximizing insurance companies ruined society, surely... because it screwed with supply and demand... I'm sorry, I can't take this, this is to stupid to be a joke.


Thankfully, we don't have these problems anymore. Today's view of things is that all disease is caused by imbalance in the body or spirit, such as lack of rest, starvation, or overeating. So while germs are a thing, everyone knows you can't get sick unless you are already less than whole. It also means that the average person knows and practices good health habits. This is why even though I did not know much about a lot of things, everyone with basic education at least knew about this stuff. Medicine nowadays also has no side effects, because its motto is "If Doing Something Would Harm, First Do Nothing." They have three effective systems: applied organics (herbalism), symbolic medicine, and unified faith theory.


The only explanation for author to write this is that they are delusional and believe in conspiracy theories.


After that, they go on and explain the magic system focused on belief, which I'm not going to talk about the validity, because it's obviously a magic system and not to be taken for real, this though... the only reason why I would believe a real human wrote that is that they are a schizo because it would make even less sense as fantasy exposition.

I am on the schizo spectrum, yes. But more importantly, I'm worldbuilding. Which I can tell you've never done.

Also, another paragraph that doesn't make sense:


Every now and then, a person would try to sneak by without paying, and the female soldier would casually cut them apart with the sword. As I came close enough to hear, the soldier said to a person ahead of me, "That will be 350 Gold." I realized that all of my banking and spending, I was now 108 Gold short. If I didn't get out of the line, I too would be turned to ribbons. I tried to back out, but people behind me grabbed me and shoved me back in line, crying, "No cutting!"


Leaving the line isn't cutting... author has to have a loose grasp on reality.

She was trying to leave, and someone was literally killing people who tried to leave without paying, and she gets moved back into line. That was the joke.

Sigh...



Said critic has no public profile, so I cannot chat with them to explain my writing choices. They also don't appear to have written anything. So I have someone who I can't talk to, what hasn't contributed anything meaningful, who wants to put down the way I write. How do I cope with them? I guess I like to publicly mock them. Yes, it's petty. I know.

...So what does everyone do to cope with poor reviews?
 
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Representing_Tromba

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If it's a review that actually tries to help you get better, IE a constructive criticism then use it to be better and know that the person reviewing isn't trying to do you any harm. If it's not constructive and just puts you down then just ignore it because it probably trolls.
 

expentio

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I guess it helps to have nice reviews and focus on those. Then you can take the purely spiteful ones with humor, as the really unfounded ones rarely have any logic to them. I for example can't take those serious who generalize and say the story is bad because they say so and everyone thinks the same when the overwhelming number of good reviews says the opposite. The ones that rate badly for a reason though can hurt. Some people just don't like your stuff and sometimes it's just their personal impression. You simply can't satisfy everyone. As long as they don't generalize and start talking for all the readers they have the right to think as they do.
On the other and, I just had areview that basically went: Good plot, good characters, good style, too dark for my taste 3 stars. (I know that's not too bad, but I was scratching my head for a while, trying to figure this guy's rating priorities out)

On another note, I think the issue the reviewer has is that it's based on our world, with our world's physics. There isn't really an explanation I've seen why 21st century medicine that obviously worked was suddenly considered a fraud and the usual plants (and not fantasy equivalents) suddenly have kinda magical effects.
If the world is based on reality then people are prone to apply real world common sense. It's hard to get out of this if you don't provide a reason why it doesn't.
 
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Kaze_NG

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Am I the only one who noticed the sneaky insults towards the author? Or is it normal to include them in reviews nowadays?
 

Representing_Tromba

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Am I the only one who noticed the sneaky insults towards the author? Or is it normal to include them in reviews nowadays?
It's not normal to be sneaky but it is normal to have insulting reviews every so often. I don't agree with it but it is fairly normal.
 

bulmabriefs144

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You want to explain your writing choices. This is a red flag.

Huh? That I shouldn't want to explain my writing choices?

So if a writer like JRR Tolkien writes a long novel that they get rejected over, and the critics are like "Why make up languages?" don't you think Tolkien would be like "I wanted to use my knowledge of language to create a world around it?" He did in fact explain himself to critics several times, particularly with regard to the claim that Lord of the Rings was an allegory about the war (it's not, he says).

Besides, he only read one chapter. There's a less confrontational way to do this, like posting in the chapter page instead of the main outline of the book.

If it's a review that actually tries to help you get better, IE a constructive criticism then use it to be better and know that the person reviewing isn't trying to do you any harm. If it's not constructive and just puts you down then just ignore it because it probably trolls.

Considering they don't have any way to reach them personally (I forgot the little envelope in the corner doesn't need a profile), or check whether the critic has done anything themselves worthy to criticize me, yeah, I'll go with that.

Should I be less wordy when I do worldbuilding? Yes, definitely. Less ranty? Probably so (though keep in mind this section was rewritten during 2020s, when public perception of health was extremely split).

Am I the only one who noticed the sneaky insults towards the author? Or is it normal to include them in reviews nowadays?

I ignored/didn't see the sneaky insults. I get a few every now and then, mostly LGBT ppl think I have "internalized transphobia" as one put it, or people don't agree with the way I think. The point is, it's a fantasy story, so some level of suspension of disbelief should have happened, but I do agree that there might have been more than a little of me as an author editorializing.
 

Tyranomaster

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My advice as a DM and Writer, ask yourself why you are mad at the review. If it's because it's nonsense, then there isn't a lot of reason to be mad, it'll even out over time. If it's because it stings somewhere inside that someone has trouble understanding your story, then use that pain to focus on what you can improve as a writer.

What I saw in the review was a lot of politically motivated anger. The reviewer was obviously taking out some rage of their own, and for that, you are justified in being a bit upset with them. However what I saw in your post was a lot of jargon word excuses.

A good quote to live by "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

While worldbuilding is an important aspect, I skimmed your first chapter, and frankly, it felt like trying to slog through a textbook. To me, a lot of it read like you were trying to make a political point, so I can't exactly be upset that the reader took a different side of it.

When it comes to world building, I'd advise not mentioning things until they're needed, and not going into extreme detail unless you plan on returning to the point later, or are foreshadowing.

I can completely sympathize with wanting to lore dump when you believe that you've developed this really cool and intricate world that works with itself and has a bunch of complexities in it. However, those complexities will become apparent in their own right as you write the story due to it being self-consistent and self-referential events.

People will never remember that you told them in Chapter 1 the intricacies of magic formula and overlapping magic circles as part of a school lecture chapter at the start. They will remember them later though when you have real and valid interactions with the magic circles as part of a sequence or interaction between characters where the magic actually is an important and integral part of the story.

So if a writer like JRR Tolkien writes a long novel that they get rejected over, and the critics are like "Why make up languages?" don't you think Tolkien would be like "I wanted to use my knowledge of language to create a world around it?" He did in fact explain himself to critics several times, particularly with regard to the claim that Lord of the Rings was an allegory about the war (it's not, he says).
Tolkien didn't lore dump his languages in chapter 1.

TLDR - It's upsetting because you likely feel, in some degree that you could improve, and the knife cuts deep. An author won't have the opportunity to explain writing choices to every reader, so you should write to minimize the amount you need to explain (ideally to zero).
 
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RepresentingCaution

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A person who bothers to write that much is saying more about themselves than they are about you. This was from someone who was looking for something to poop on to make them feel better about themselves. If they hadn't found your work as a suitable place to take a dump, they would have pooped elsewhere.
 

DJ_Rhaposdy

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It's not normal to be sneaky but it is normal to have insulting reviews every so often. I don't agree with it but it is fairly normal.
Yeah, and it degrades any legitimate criticisms they may have. I'm sure this reviewer has good points, they're just buried under insults that aim to tear down rather than build up.
So I have someone who I can't talk to, what hasn't contributed anything meaningful, who wants to put down the way I write. How do I cope with them?
It depends what you want to get out of it. As others said, focus on the positive reviews with detailed thoughts over the negative one that do nothing but make personal attacks as their goal is to occupy head space. You win by ignoring them.
 
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RepresentingWrath

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Huh? That I shouldn't want to explain my writing choices?
Yeah, you shouldn't. Because readers don't owe shit to you. They don't have to understand you. They can do whatever the hell they want if it doesn't break the rules. There is no right or wrong way to write a review. This dude wrote his opinion as review. He was an ass. Why would you spend your time on an asshole? If this review has no value you should simply forget about it.

If you are so mad, instead of trying to talk with a wall, look at this thing.
Read it and report the review. If mods will find that it truly breaks any of the rules, they will delete it.

And lastly, I haven't read your novel, so I have no idea whether this reviewer is right or not. I can tell with certainty that he was an ass, but I can also tell that I found one thing that can be considered helpful. Does it acquit the whole review? No. But it shows that if you don't bother to force everyone to like your novel, you can find something helpful even in this pile of garbage.
 
D

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How do you do it? How deal with people who critique your work, when you can't have a civil discussion because they've blocked PMs and chatting? Like, you can't explain why you put this and that in your book because they are unavailable. Me, I want to be liked, even if it doesn't seem that way, so it hurts when someone unconditionally hates my stuff. And not just hates the stuff that I also thought was bad, but doesn't even bother to understand me.





Actually, it's what is known as worldbuilding. I am describing how medicine developed in the 20th and 21st centuries from the perspective of someone in the 70th century where magic is real. In the 16th century, bloodletting was done. That's only four or five centuries of gap, right? Now think of 50 centuries and how different medicine might be.



Science always marches on, even fantasy science. The things you think are so sophisticated today are likely to be scoffed at tomorrow. And yes, I do tend to rant and go on tangents, but this section did have an important reason to be added. "How was Ambrosia healed?" I wanted to answer the question of how medicine works in this world. Being a fantasy world, it rejects what you see as "science" as backwards.



The first chemotherapy was developed following exposure to mustard gas. It has a 90% fail rate, because the body makes stem cells against it. I can show you my research if you like. But you either believe it or you don't.



If you trust your medicine as though it can solve all problems, what happens when your doctor misdiagnoses you? Or gives you a medicine at an overdose? Yes, people do sometimes take drugs because they would like them to work, not because they do work.

But you've missed an important point here. This is an explanation of how people 5000 YEARS in the future are doing medicine. In Discworld, they used to think the world was round, but now know it's a disc on the back of four elephants riding on a turtle. The point being that an author can set up any rules to how science or medicine evolved that they like, and the reader is supposed to suspend their disbelief, even if it's hilarious.

What you want to believe outside of reading my book is up to you, but you've failed at reading the story, I'm afraid.



Because of trust. People like you trust the science, and keep taking medicine even if it makes you cough and gives you warts. Side effects? Who cares?!? "Modern" medicine has continued far longer than it should. I would have thought people would stop taking dangerous drugs long ago, but even a cursory glance at how doctors said thalidomide was "non-toxic" in 1958 despite awful birth defects, yeah that tells me that's not the case. Look up PFOA in your spare time.



I am on the schizo spectrum, yes. But more importantly, I'm worldbuilding. Which I can tell you've never done.



She was trying to leave, and someone was literally killing people who tried to leave without paying, and she gets moved back into line. That was the joke.

Sigh...



Said critic has no public profile, so I cannot chat with them to explain my writing choices. They also don't appear to have written anything. So I have someone who I can't talk to, what hasn't contributed anything meaningful, who wants to put down the way I write. How do I cope with them? I guess I like to publicly mock them. Yes, it's petty. I know.

...So what does everyone do to cope with poor reviews?
Before, I sulk and think myself to death that I'm not worthy blah blah blah.

However, in my search to appease everyone about on my works, I've concluded that:

-I can't please everyone.
-Everyone has their own biases and preferences.
-Almost all who 'review' stuff and claim they are 'neutral' or something similar, aren't really neutral. There can't be a neutral reader/reviewer.

So what did I do? I change my outlook on how I handle reviews.

1) When I noticed I'm getting a lot of negative reviews on RoyalRoad, I looked at the feedback. Some are really helpful, though with shades of insult typical of a 'trying-hard' critic. I took those and threw away the nonsensical ones.

2) I also got my story planned ahead. It's not really a guarantee you can shield yourself from getting hurt/affected by bad revs, but it will help you distinguish what feedback will help you improve and what is to be thrown away.

3) In connection to #1, I also observed the audience. Just like in modern education, if we judge a fish based on the same standard (like climbing a tree), it will surely fail the test. Consider who comprises a site. If, for example, in RoyalRoad where litRPGs are a trend, then post litRPG stuff.

Here in SH, a lot of noisy users hated my genre: harem and isekai. So, I removed my story here and posted somewhere else.

I did these and now my author life is at peace. I do get some bad feedback occasionally, but it's helpful than these revs coming from high-and-mighty wannabes.
 

LunaSoltaer

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Hooooooooo boy. OKAY!

First, before ANYTHING, let the wound sting, and let it pass around and through you. I've skimmed your opening post, and you come off as rather quite defencive. Which, I don't blame you, I was like that when I started writing my book, Solstice (Hells, I even pre-empted a lot of incoming flak, which might explain my relatively low reader count).

I did read over your first chapter, and while I found it quite verbose and challenging to read through especially as I was reading it to assess the review and not natively, it did NOT deserve THAT. That said, I suspect you have several factors in your book that could lead to this sort of reaction:

- You have a serious description and a snarky protagonist. It's a bit of a tonal shift that can knock someone off their rocker for a bit. I personally actually like Ambrosia's commentary, but I'm also a bit of an Untitled Goose.

- Your book is called Oracle of Tao, and has very strong Eastern Philosophical theming, but then you bring in YHWH, or as you may better know him, the capital G Judeo-Christian God. Or that's how like everyone is going to view your GOD character because pretty much everyone's going to think Abrahamic religions when they see Capital-G God. You're straying well off the beaten path here, and honestly props, but it IS a risky maneuver. You do you, however, and it seems like you did.

- That insurance bit in your chapter CAN, WILL, and HAS ruffled the feathers of quite a few people. Especially if this reviewer was in the US, this is extremely hot-button. Economics is unfortunately married to politics, which, well, turns peoples' brains off. This reviewer clearly read your first chapter, decided the points you espoused were UTTERLY REPREHENSIBLE and chose to lead a personal crusade against you.

- The medicine commentary will also cause people to think of antivax, and other politicking, and is going to set people off. You seem like you put considerable research into this, and that is commendable, but people get polarised very easily, and at some point conversation breaks down.

- You did mention this in your description, and I commend you for it, but I can SEE the remnants of the RPG this started out as. 100cp=10sp=1gp, MP, A blank name for a town, explicitly suggesting that it can be named at will? A lot of SOD walls are going to break from this more than I think anything else, just because of how utterly differently literature plays than CRPGs.

- You're a published author who is presumably actually making money from this. One-Shot Protection is GONE for you, and people feel especially empowered to go on the attack. A lot of readers (myself included) will be significantly nicer toward newer authors.

I'm not saying whether I agree or disagree with any of these points, but I'm pointing out possible reasons why this might have happened. (Personally, I really despise that the TQ+ community loves to hurl "internalized transphobia" at people. Especially when they're writing purposely outside of their experiences and beliefs as an exercise in self-growth. But that's an aside.)

I can do an actual proper review of your first chapter if you'd like, maybe even as far as 5 chapters, but it will be slow.

But I absolutely implore you, meditate on your emotions. You're in a spot of extreme hurt, and it WILL colour how you handle yourself and those around you. Hurt people hurt people. Just how it works. It is tragic, but while this reviewer is a jerk, others will be genuinely trying to help, and we owe it to our friends and family and lovers and siblings to foster what little warmth we can in this cold world.

I apologise if this is unwelcome, but i hope any of this helps.

If you'd like to rant or vent toward, or at, me, either on main or here, you can message me. The TLDR here is: You went off the beaten trail, which is cool, but sometimes random encounters happen (people dislike it).
 

TASTYLEADPAINT

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Tbh as long as you enjoy writing who gives a fuck what a bad review says. There are people on this site writing absolute trash and they still.post regularly because its fun
writing to impress people never ends well because your more likely to take one bad review seriously.
 

owotrucked

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Everything an author writes is an artistic choice that has its own justification. From vocabulary, pacing, setting, plot design, character consistency, etc, the choices are endless. Whether you can articulate your reasons in a complicated manner or show how well thought-out they are, it all boils down to "I just felt like it/I wanted to" and this is a viable justification.

Similarly, you don't need to justify why you like sweet food or why you're right handed, etc.

Don't forget that art is a communication between its creator and its audience. You get to choose how to strike the balance between your own values and your audience's values.

Random dudes in your audience are free to express their values and point out which artistic choices they disliked, but in the end you're the final arbiter who decide what to keep.

In another words, critics is a negotiation on how to shape the final product. It is a request between a starved consummer begging for good food (reader) and a cook, who accepts in their infinite generosity to remove the lettuce and the bleach from the dish (you). If they're rude, you get to shove the bleach in their throat.

You're free to express your opinion. Wanna shit on insurance? Sure, go ahead! Talk shit on the state of science being swept under the influence of capitalism corruption with billions $$$ stakes? Be my guest. Agree with readers to disagree.

I haven't read your story, but I guess I'll slip in my advice:
If you seek commercial success (cater to audience) for a webnovel format, you'd usually aim for a few thing with your first chapter:
First you set yourself a word count budget from 1k to 2k words. Within this wordcount, you can fulfill those constraints:
- Start out with few named characters to avoid reader’s confusion
- Introduce your MC trying to get something done
- Expose a compelling desire, and possibly how much the MC is ready to pay for it
- Expose a conflict that prevent MC from succeeding
- Bait for a bright future, a (cheat) key to overcome challenge that set the MC apart from the rest
- Be wary that the conflict introduced will set the tone for the rest of your story. If it's an action story, it's preferable to start with an action ordeal.
- Same thing for tone. If your story is memetastic, slather that shit.

To fulfill all those functions within a single chapter, you'll have to limit how much worldbuilding you dump at once. If you put too much word budget into telling, you won't have enough to show the proper stuff.

Unless you fucked yourself because you already wrote a prequel or a sequel, you should have enough flexibility in plot design to move what you want to expose (worldbuilding dump) around: If you want to shit on insurance, just design the plot so that you can SHOW it instead of telling it through a side character's ordeal.

This is just my personal cooking recipe, that's what I think fast paced low attention span readers want. You decide which constraints you'd like to fulfill depending on your audience.
 
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CupcakeNinja

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Yeah, you shouldn't. Because readers don't owe shit to you. They don't have to understand you. They can do whatever the hell they want if it doesn't break the rules. There is no right or wrong way to write a review. This dude wrote his opinion as review. He was an ass. Why would you spend your time on an asshole? If this review has no value you should simply forget about it.

If you are so mad, instead of trying to talk with a wall, look at this thing.
Read it and report the review. If mods will find that it truly breaks any of the rules, they will delete it.

And lastly, I haven't read your novel, so I have no idea whether this reviewer is right or not. I can tell with certainty that he was an ass, but I can also tell that I found one thing that can be considered helpful. Does it acquit the whole review? No. But it shows that if you don't bother to force everyone to like your novel, you can find something helpful even in this pile of garbage.
sometimes its not even about explaining yourself. But if a person is straight talking shit, i should be able to do so back. Criticism is fine, but even if the criticism is a good, if it doesnt fit with the style you envision for the story then i say ignore it. Like, sometimes a story's flaws exist just because you want to focus on other aspects. And trying to balance it out would make it lose the charm most readers stick around for. Especially if the setting is something most people are already very intimately familiar with.

for example i dont really care too much about world building in a story set in a medieval fantasy world. Seen that setting so many times almost nothing about it is new to me anyway. I do, however, care about if the characters are fun and the prose itself is engaging.

LOTR is amazing but i also love Mushoku Tensei. It aint the same as LOTR just cuz they are both sword and magic stories and they shouldn't be. They both got their elements that attract me for different reasons.
 
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