I just want to vent

Jemini

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
2,037
Points
153
2. Try your hand at different things. Write a few one shots. Write any practice series. Gain loyal readers. Overthrow the galactic empire. All that.
Oh, and well, stop comparing Wattpad to this site. The readers are different, it's as if there is a cultural clash. You don't know if those readers are actual readers or simply people who have you on their reading list.

This is very VERY good advice. If I have to be honest with myself, I think I can probably chalk 80% of my success minimum up to loyalty readers. Before I even started writing my original fictions, I did some quick one-shot fan fictions on the Death Mage LCD over on Noveludtates, just chatting around with the readers over there. I think that's where I got most of my initial readers for Sister of a Goddess.

Then, when I rebooted it into Key to the Void, I managed to carry over around 400 loyalty readers from Sister of a Goddess for an initial boost to my readership. That, in turn, increases visibility to other new readers.

There really is no selling short the value of loyalty readers. That's why every time someone in the comments section mentions they read one of my other works, I like to try and say something about how I appreciate them coming to check this one out as well. They really are invaluable.
 

WasatchWind

Writer, musician, creator of worlds
Joined
Feb 7, 2021
Messages
397
Points
103
I think @WasatchWind personally, your synopsis and book cover stands out because it sounds the start of something like an interesting physical book I would pick up to read. The start though, since there's still a lot of improvements to go before it sounds like a really good published book. However, since this is an online writing platform, it may be a bit different from what others like and are used to reading online. I know a lot are recommending some good tips to grow on SH, but just in case, save your current synopsis and book cover - at least something to look back into if need be. ;)
Alright, I have a new synopsis, what do you think?




Irian is a scale farmer. He removes the colorful scales from imprisoned merfolk, and then the farm sells them to become jewelry. Despite the dire circumstances that led Irian there, it has become a somewhat peaceful life for him.

His fellow apprentice Tarn does not seem to find it peaceful however. The younger boy seems shaky, and hesitant to do their work. For all the boy's timidness, Irian could ignore him, and enjoy a stable living. Until the day Tarn went rogue, and his attempt to liberate the mers ruined Irian's life.
 
D

Deleted member 45782

Guest
Alright, I have a new synopsis, what do you think?




Irian is a scale farmer. He removes the colorful scales from imprisoned merfolk, and then the farm sells them to become jewelry. Despite the dire circumstances that led Irian there, it has become a somewhat peaceful life for him.

His fellow apprentice Tarn does not seem to find it peaceful however. The younger boy seems shaky, and hesitant to do their work. For all the boy's timidness, Irian could ignore him, and enjoy a stable living. Until the day Tarn went rogue, and his attempt to liberate the mers ruined Irian's life.
I think...the old one sounded nicer.
 

strayCat0

Other
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
77
Points
73
Like what others said, people are not too familiar with merfolk and sea civilisation. In isekai and contemporary novel, you don't really need to establish the world so that readers can invest into it. But your story is different.

How can i relate with legless humanoid people? What similarity do i have with them so that i can keep interested to it? That's what people are thinking when they stumbled to your story--even though the main characters are humans

also, you can dedicate a few paragraphs to describe the situation around them may help to make your readers to keep interested. This is weird because your synopsis is rather good at description (unlike what other said in this, i kinda like it), but your chapters are full of character interactions
Edit: I mean describe the world, sorry. I'm still sleepy and there is only a hour left before i have to do a test. I'm sorry if what i'm saying rn is unreadable
 
Last edited:

Agentt

Thighs
Joined
Oct 8, 2020
Messages
3,532
Points
183
Alright, I have a new synopsis, what do you think?




Irian is a scale farmer. He removes the colorful scales from imprisoned merfolk, and then the farm sells them to become jewelry. Despite the dire circumstances that led Irian there, it has become a somewhat peaceful life for him.

His fellow apprentice Tarn does not seem to find it peaceful however. The younger boy seems shaky, and hesitant to do their work. For all the boy's timidness, Irian could ignore him, and enjoy a stable living. Until the day Tarn went rogue, and his attempt to liberate the mers ruined Irian's life.
This really doesn't tell is much...
It reminds me of this kingdom building I want to make, an elf came and made a peasant into a king. I have no idea what to do with this. This line is all I have thought of it.
 

WasatchWind

Writer, musician, creator of worlds
Joined
Feb 7, 2021
Messages
397
Points
103
I think...the old one sounded nicer.
hmmmmmmmmmmm.... synopses are so hard.... people I talk about this story much more thoroughly seem to find my initial premise unique, but its hard to communicate so concisely. Too concisely - Irian farms merfolk, and it comes across as people are eating them as sushi.

Not concise enough, and I have a gigantic paragraph explaining how its an analogue to the american beaver trade used to make stupid looking furry top hats and how it had a major effect on westward expansion.
 
D

Deleted member 45782

Guest
hmmmmmmmmmmm.... synopses are so hard.... people I talk about this story much more thoroughly seem to find my initial premise unique, but its hard to communicate so concisely. Too concisely - Irian farms merfolk, and it comes across as people are eating them as sushi.

Not concise enough, and I have a gigantic paragraph explaining how its an analogue to the american beaver trade used to make stupid looking furry top hats and how it had a major effect on westward expansion.
I guess it depends really. Synopsis to me is not bad because I can write a lot shorter and say what the story is gonna be. I'll read your story one of these days. And dm me on discord the whole story summary from start to end. Maybe could help. :)
 

Jemini

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
2,037
Points
153
It doesn't inspire me to skim over the whole thing anymore, but it can definitely still use some work. The people who have actually read it say that it needs more of those details about the war back. I have not read it, so I think you should listen to them over me.

All I have to add to this is to ask you, "What is the premise of your story?" Is the new synopsis closer to it? Or do you really plan to go into the full politics of the war and such? That's the sort of thing you really need to pay attention to.

EDIT: If this new synopsis is really closer to your premise than the old one, maybe the solution is actually to go deeper on the nature of Irian's lifestyle and personality rather than to bring back the text-book stuff about the war. As a rule, even when it comes to synopsies for big-name printed books, you want to keep your synopsis focused in on the core points of your story. If it's more about following Irian as a character and the war is just a back-drop, then you want to go the opposite direction and dive deep into aspects of Irian's personal life and interpersonal conflict in the synopsis.

Once again though, I am using a lot of "if" statements here because I don't actually know what you're doing with this story. If you really do plan to have a lot of political intrigue and the history of this conflict going on here and making that more than just a back-drop, perhaps you really should be bringing details of the war back into the picture.

(Still though, I stand by my advice of using the scale farmer thing as your hook. The reason why your old synopsis might work better as a traditional book synopsis is because when people pick up those books they are literally judging them by their cover. That means people have already made their decision based on the cover art and the title before ever reading your synopsis. As such, you don't have to try as hard and can get away with just giving some dry information. As a webnovel though, your synopsis actually has to do more lifting for your story. Webnovel readers are actually swayed by a story's synopsis, so it needs a much stronger hook in those first 15 words.)
 
Last edited:

HappyVainGlory

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
157
Points
83
Why is it so hard to get people to look at my original fantasy novel? Yeah, they'll look at my fanfiction, but my actually good fantasy novel they will not. At this point, maybe it's just time to sell my soul and write an isekai because my story clearly isn't interesting enough as is.

First off, the readerbase for traditional fantasy novels here is small. Like, outrageously small. You'd definitely be better off with RoyalRoad in that regard... though brace yourself if you decide that. In comparison, the readerbase for trashy/smutty isekai/LitRPG novels is ginormous.

Honestly, sometimes I wonder why people read those sorts of stories... and then I remember that I found this place because I was desperately looking for my own fix of isekai and LitRPG stories and had gotten to the point where I was reading barely translated super bottom barrel Japanese light novels. I'm sure that there's a boatload of people in the same situation who are happy that there are stories that are at least sensical, even if terribly written.

And then when you take into account that even the worst isekai/LitRPG novel here is at least on par with some of the poorly translated light novels out there and that at least half are MAGNITUDES better... Well, it's a match made in heaven. And even if not, at least a giant dumpster pile to dig through compared to a tiny barrel.

Next off, about your "actually good fantasy novel."

Well, if you think that, why are you asking for feedback?

If you think it's actually good, shut up and let the work speak for itself.

If you want feedback and if you want to improve, pump out sheer volume and cut your teeth. Right now, you've barely gotten to 100k words and you want to say that you're 'good'? The race doesn't even really start until you hit a million, and when you do you're barely walking. We won't even talk about sprinting with the best of them.

As for selling your soul... Well, as a writer that's, pardon the pun, literally what you're doing. If you're willing to lower your standards just to get attention, then good on you, but you're going to be worth nothing more than dirt. If you want to rise and to shine, you've gotta wake up and realize that it doesn't matter what people think if you believe in yourself and your work.

As a final point, even if you do 'sell [your] soul and write an isekai', I can guarantee you that it'll be trash that gets flamed to hell and back within the day because you clearly don't believe in your work enough for anyone to give it even a rat's ass time of day.

tl;dr - put up or shut up

This has been unsolicited life advice from your local happy and vain writer. Have a wonderful morning/afternoon/evening.
 

KiraMinoru

Untitled Generic Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
473
Points
133
Alright, I have a new synopsis, what do you think?




Irian is a scale farmer. He removes the colorful scales from imprisoned merfolk, and then the farm sells them to become jewelry. Despite the dire circumstances that led Irian there, it has become a somewhat peaceful life for him.

His fellow apprentice Tarn does not seem to find it peaceful however. The younger boy seems shaky, and hesitant to do their work. For all the boy's timidness, Irian could ignore him, and enjoy a stable living. Until the day Tarn went rogue, and his attempt to liberate the mers ruined Irian's life.
How about this?

Irian, the scale farmer who dreams a dream. A grand dream to become the greatest scale farmer in history. He wishes for his name to be heralded by even gods, as the man who single-handedly scaled Poseidon himself. At least, that’s what he likes to tell himself while living his peaceful life together with his apprentice Tarn. Only, is his life really as peaceful as he believes it to be?

Cues Pirates of the Caribbean soundtrack.
 
Last edited:

WasatchWind

Writer, musician, creator of worlds
Joined
Feb 7, 2021
Messages
397
Points
103
I guess it depends really. Synopsis to me is not bad because I can write a lot shorter and say what the story is gonna be. I'll read your story one of these days. And dm me on discord the whole story summary from start to end. Maybe could help. :)
Hmmm. Send you the story summary...

1617155644771.png

First off, the readerbase for traditional fantasy novels here is small. Like, outrageously small. You'd definitely be better off with RoyalRoad in that regard... though brace yourself if you decide that. In comparison, the readerbase for trashy/smutty isekai/LitRPG novels is ginormous.

Honestly, sometimes I wonder why people read those sorts of stories... and then I remember that I found this place because I was desperately looking for my own fix of isekai and LitRPG stories and had gotten to the point where I was reading barely translated super bottom barrel Japanese light novels. I'm sure that there's a boatload of people in the same situation who are happy that there are stories that are at least sensical, even if terribly written.

And then when you take into account that even the worst isekai/LitRPG novel here is at least on par with some of the poorly translated light novels out there and that at least half are MAGNITUDES better... Well, it's a match made in heaven. And even if not, at least a giant dumpster pile to dig through compared to a tiny barrel.

Next off, about your "actually good fantasy novel."

Well, if you think that, why are you asking for feedback?

If you think it's actually good, shut up and let the work speak for itself.

If you want feedback and if you want to improve, pump out sheer volume and cut your teeth. Right now, you've barely gotten to 100k words and you want to say that you're 'good'? The race doesn't even really start until you hit a million, and when you do you're barely walking. We won't even talk about sprinting with the best of them.

As for selling your soul... Well, as a writer that's, pardon the pun, literally what you're doing. If you're willing to lower your standards just to get attention, then good on you, but you're going to be worth nothing more than dirt. If you want to rise and to shine, you've gotta wake up and realize that it doesn't matter what people think if you believe in yourself and your work.

As a final point, even if you do 'sell [your] soul and write an isekai', I can guarantee you that it'll be trash that gets flamed to hell and back within the day because you clearly don't believe in your work enough for anyone to give it even a rat's ass time of day.

tl;dr - put up or shut up

This has been unsolicited life advice from your local happy and vain writer. Have a wonderful morning/afternoon/evening.
Perhaps... I was a bit heated in that original comment. And I think I poorly worded that at the beginning. When I said that they'll read my fanfaction rather than my actually good fantasy novel, it was in comparison to my fanfic, which I don't consider my best work.

I honestly can't say for sure what my level of quality is compared to the top writers of the site. I have a few people that seem to like my story on Wattpad. But I'm not sure as to objective quality.

I also have written a decent amount I feel. I've rewritten this fantasy novel a good number of times. I've finished my 80k word fanfic, I've got a sci fi novel I'm rewriting, a short story on hiatus, and a number of other scattered projects.

I'm sorry if I came across as rude or entitled. I really just was having a bad time. At least I got some feedback from it.
 
Last edited:

Agentt

Thighs
Joined
Oct 8, 2020
Messages
3,532
Points
183
You need to get rid of the mentality of:
1) I'm awesome, recognize my greatness!
2) Your tastes suck. Here's my dick, suck it!
3) If you're not reading my work, you're terrible people.
4) I'm definitely right, screw you.
5) My shit is amazing, if you're not amazed, that's because you're scum.
Someday, I wish to reach the dissing level of the queen.
 

Jemini

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
2,037
Points
153
I did have a thought. I have presented quite a bit about how I might do things, but how about looking at the work of a writer I consider FAR better than myself?


This thing manages to achieve a LOT with a little. Part of the secret here in what @RavensDagger is doing is that between his' cover, title, and synopsis, the three are actually covering for each other and working in synergy. It is also working off of pop culture to supplement even more information.

The synopsis establishes we are working with magical girls. Anyone dealing with magical girl content in the modern day simply can't help but think of Madoka Magica, which had a heavy theme of time-travel. The story has "loop" in the name. This association is all you need to get in your head that there's going to be something time-travel related.

Finally, they synopsis gives an in-world perspective from a POV that would require you to know a thing or two about some characters in the story, namely the "cute creature" that gives the magical girls their powers. If you have read the story, it makes perfect sense that you are talking from the perspective of someone talking about the "cute creature" here.

This packs in even more information into fewer words. Also, it does not answer every question, and is a little trollish. Not a single word of that synopsis is inaccurate, but taking all the little snippets of information you gather together from these little details, it will lead you down some very wrong paths as to what actually goes on. However, that doesn't matter. It did not actually lie to you, and the fake plot you probably imagined in your mind was likely interesting enough to get you reading.

These are some really high-level writing techniques @RavensDagger is using to get across a lot more information with fewer words. The cover art is also playing into the theme of giving fairly little information up front, but packing in a LOT of meaning that all becomes relevant and something you can analyze and parse apart as you start to read it. However, even when you haven't got any information yet, the bright red color of that circle drawn around the MC's face in the picture manages to pull this little mind-trick.

"Loop? And there's a circle there."

Every last detail about the synergy between these 3 aspects plays little tricks on the subconscious of the person viewing it. On first glance, it manages to use a lot of aspects of forced perspective to guide the prospective reader's thoughts in such a way that they really don't care about the fact they are not given much information, they are still interested.

A large part of this trick actually IS the fact that there is a lot of withheld hidden meaning to all of it that you have to read the story in order to understand. Your brain can sense those unresolved gaps in information, and it doesn't like it. It wants those answers, so you want more information so you can fill in those gaps. This is especially true when you can already almost answer a lot of those questions just by analyzing what's given to you without reading it in the first place.

A lot of the unfilled information also comes from outside sources. The cover art is designed like a personal add you put up on a bulletin board. The title uses the word "Agartha," which is a name for an underground city in Western Esotericism. (Have you ever heard the word "esoteric?" Well, the religion called "Western Esotericism" is where the word came from.) So, that's more borrowing from outside sources that adds to the itch in your brain. And, of course there is the Madoka Magica link it makes with the synopsis.

I could go deep into analyzing any of the three aspects there, but unearthing the reasons behind it is not the point. The point is the very fact I'm ABLE to unearth this much information from so little in the first place without having ever read the story, and still have every single last scrap of information presented as well as information derived all be relevant to the story. That's the true mastery of what's going on and why it makes for such an effective synergy between the three.
 
Last edited:

Hathnuz

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
197
Points
83
If you followed my suggestions back then, this probably wouldn't happen. Just saying~
 

WasatchWind

Writer, musician, creator of worlds
Joined
Feb 7, 2021
Messages
397
Points
103
If you followed my suggestions back then, this probably wouldn't happen. Just saying~
You mean using the light novel titles? I appreciate the suggestion, but it personally isn't my cup of tea.
I did have a thought. I have presented quite a bit about how I might do things, but how about looking at the work of a writer I consider FAR better than myself?


This thing manages to achieve a LOT with a little. Part of the secret here in what @RavensDagger is doing is that between his' cover, title, and synopsis, the three are actually covering for each other and working in synergy. It is also working off of pop culture to supplement even more information.

The synopsis establishes we are working with magical girls. Anyone dealing with magical girl content in the modern day simply can't help but think of Madoka Magica, which had a heavy theme of time-travel. The story has "loop" in the name. This association is all you need to get in your head that there's going to be something time-travel related.

Finally, they synopsis gives an in-world perspective from a POV that would require you to know a thing or two about some characters in the story, namely the "cute creature" that gives the magical girls their powers. If you have read the story, it makes perfect sense that you are talking from the perspective of someone talking about the "cute creature" here.

This packs in even more information into fewer words. Also, it does not answer every question, and is a little trollish. Not a single word of that synopsis is inaccurate, but taking all the little snippets of information you gather together from these little details, it will lead you down some very wrong paths as to what actually goes on. However, that doesn't matter. It did not actually lie to you, and the fake plot you probably imagined in your mind was likely interesting enough to get you reading.

These are some really high-level writing techniques @RavensDagger is using to get across a lot more information with fewer words. The cover art is also playing into the theme of giving fairly little information up front, but packing in a LOT of meaning that all becomes relevant and something you can analyze and parse apart as you start to read it. However, even when you haven't got any information yet, the bright red color of that circle drawn around the MC's face in the picture manages to pull this little mind-trick.

"Loop? And there's a circle there."

Every last detail about the synergy between these 3 aspects plays little tricks on the subconscious of the person viewing it. On first glance, it manages to use a lot of aspects of forced perspective to guide the prospective reader's thoughts in such a way that they really don't care about the fact they are not given much information, they are still interested.

A large part of this trick actually IS the fact that there is a lot of withheld hidden meaning to all of it that you have to read the story in order to understand. Your brain can sense those unresolved gaps in information, and it doesn't like it. It wants those answers, so you want more information so you can fill in those gaps. This is especially true when you can already almost answer a lot of those questions just by analyzing what's given to you without reading it in the first place.

A lot of the unfilled information also comes from outside sources. The cover art is designed like a personal add you put up on a bulletin board. The title uses the word "Agartha," which is a name for an underground city in Western Esotericism. (Have you ever heard the word "esoteric?" Well, the religion called "Western Esotericism" is where the word came from.) So, that's more borrowing from outside sources that adds to the itch in your brain. And, of course there is the Madoka Magica link it makes with the synopsis.

I could do deep into analyzing any of the three aspects there, but unearthing the reasons behind what it is not the point. The point is the very fact I'm ABLE to unearth this much information from so little in the first place without having ever read the story, and still have every single last scrap of information presented as well as information derived all be relevant to the story. That's the true mastery of what's going on and why it makes for such an effective synergy between the three.
Interesting, it is a very well made cover, and pretty concise synopsis.

I doubt that I could get my synopsis down to that few of words, but perhaps I can take something from how you mentioned that what's being presented seem to understand the audience.

Do you think that perhaps, considering someone said that most merfolk novels on here are BL, that maybe I should imply that this isn't a BL? Obviously that is going to turn away those readers, but it may keep those that don't like BL... but of course, I have a merman on the cover... augh, this is difficult to puzzle out.
 

Daitengu

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2019
Messages
917
Points
133
I've been reading web novels for about a decade. So many dead stories under my belt. Straight up I don't start any story unless it's finished or has under forty chapters while not being finished. Unless the author has more finished works than unfinished ones behind them.

I got 30 weekly released stories, and 10 daily or bi-daily stories I read. As such, if there's a lot of supporting characters who show up all and take up more time pov wise than the MC, I'm dumping it. I've already got to remember the important casts of 40 other stories, I ain't got the slots for a dozen characters in one story that releases weekly or greater. Thus I skip harem stories. Cause either they are shit, or I just don't have the capacity to remember the characters.
 

Hathnuz

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
197
Points
83
You mean using the light novel titles? I appreciate the suggestion, but it personally isn't my cup of tea.
Light novel titles are just more extreme examples to illustrate my point. I also meant using my idea for your synopsis too. By the way, Jemini said it better than me, so you should read her post.
 
Top