Feedback for a fight scene

[Dawnathon]

Hello, I had written a fight scene recently that I'd like some feedback on. You can find it here.

Just for some context, the protagonist is the titular shapeshifter, but it's a slow process. She can prepare things in advance, but it can't create much on the fly. She has used it to give herself beastly levels of strength and endurance, and separately she can use wind magic (used for both creating and negating the respective element). For all her strength, she is trying to take this unknown assailant alive.

Review it however you wish, but these are the main questions I'd like to hear your answer on:

1.) How is the pacing overall? Too fast, too slow, inconsistent, etc.
2.) How weighty do the attacks feel? Do they portray a lot of impact, or do they feel toothless?
3.) How coherent is the action? Did you ever lose track of what was going on, or could you picture the fight well enough throughout?
4.) Did the fight end too quickly, or did it feel like it lasted long enough to sell the scene?
5.) Should there be more background effects going on? Describing panic from any observers, possible police sirens in the distance, the way fire (inconsequentially) singes background objects, other environmental details not part of the fight itself.

 

[Ellie_in_Pink]

Did you mean to link to your prologue? Because I didn't see a fight scene.

 

[Dawnathon]

Did you mean to link to your prologue? Because I didn't see a fight scene.

Sorry about that. The link is fixed now. I'm not even sure how that happened.

 

[Ellie_in_Pink]

No worries. You were very specific in your request for feedback, so I wanted to be sure to give it a look.

So you're at a clearly higher level than what I'm used to giving feedback on. So what I'm recommending, even if I don't always coat it in flowery language, is all more advanced stuff that mean that you are progressing really well in your writing.

First issue is paragraph and sentence construction. Again, it's wonderful to see someone who is comfortable writing paragraphs more than a sentence long. But, in a fight scene, you have the extra afforded room to play with your paragraphs and sentences so that the rhythm of the prose matches the tension in the scene. I'll edit an example below for you to see.

The novae kept a stranded eye watching the tree, while she herself quietly slipped off the roof, ensuring her path would never cross the killer's line of sight. Reaching into her own coat pocket, she withdrew a flintlock pistol, took a deep breath, then made her approach. Being completely silent was impossible even for her, but she had another idea in mind. Letting one of her strands of eyes creep its way towards a bush in a different direction, she lightly shook it in the way some small animal might have. It definitely caught the killer's attention, making them tense up warily, but it was enough to mask her footsteps until she was just below them. She stopped, taking a deep breath in.

"The novae kept a stranded eye watching the tree, while she herself quietly slipped off the roof. Her path would never cross the killer's line of sight. Reaching into her own coat pocket, she withdrew a flintlock pistol. She took a deep breath ... then made her approach.

Complete silence was impossible even for her, but she had another idea in mind.

Letting one of her eyes creep its way towards a bush in a different direction, she lightly shook it like a lure. It was enough to mask her footsteps until she was just below them.

She stopped, taking a deep breath in."

Here, I've cut some verb tenses that were making the pace much slower. I group actions into smaller paragraphs as long as they are direct sequences of events. And I've created a few one-line paragraphs to draw emphasis to changes in pace. Again, this is a stalking/hunting/survival scene. Her mind should be choppy. Thus, the prose can be choppy. And that heightens the tension when done in a controlled way. My elipses are somewhat controversial (along with m-dashes which people now think is the exclusive right of AI nowadays). You don't have to use them. But, again, you get more license for weirdness in your storytelling tools when covering unusual ground in your story.

"STOP WHERE YOU ARE!

You don't need all caps in mature writing. Let the dialogue itself carry the urgency. Instead of:

"STOP WHERE YOU ARE! Stay down! Put your hands up, or I'll shoot!"

Do more with less like:

"Don't. Fucking. Move."

Three words, a small amount of unusual punctuation, and yet it carries weight, tension. For tension, less is usually more. Of course, you may not want hardened killer tone. You may want nervousness or something like that. Which can all be achieved in much the same way. The same goes with using a bold font later. Save bold font for computers speaking, or something like that. Let your dialogue itself hold the emotion and urgency.

Next, all of your dialogue is just a little ... stereotypical bad guy. Which is also robbing the scene of some power, bringing it back to the mundane. Even if these are the only lines the killer ever gives, you'll heighten the tension by actually making them seem like a distinct person.

BANG!

Save sound effects for when you want to write the screenplay of the next Adam West Batman. Bop! Pow! Zing!

"...I never said I was bluffing. Stand down! Don't make this worse for yourself." There was an aggression in Kurai's voice that left it unfamiliar even to herself. The shaking in her voice had gone away.

Again, losing tension because your characters are saying too much, and yet nothing at all.

"...Ahh... aagh... ghhh... gaahhh..."

More silly sound effects, also undercutting tension.

With another roar, the assassin once again launched herself forwards, igniting her fists with explosive potential. The first blow landed on Kurai's forearm, eliciting a gasp of pain as the flames seared into her. The assassin was only somewhat strong for a human, but her fires were beyond reproach. Every single burst of flame was like the roar of a dragon. They were a force multiplier onto every strike.

You're describing the attacks, but not the consequences. Remember, a single punch to the throat that results in something cracking, the target gasping for breath, choking up blood, is more powerful on the page than any 12-step combo with flames and fire. I'm not saying you can't make your choreography cool. You absolutely can. But you need to show the consequences of a strike for it to matter. Also, less continues to be more. The longer a fight goes, the more it starts to drone on for the reader.

(Skipping a lot of the same sorts of problems I've already mentioned.)

It completely tore through the novae's stomach, along with her liver, intestines, lungs, spine, heart, and many, many other parts. Yet, it wasn't powerful enough a blast to reach her skull. It was something she could still recover from. All of her viscera could still be reabsorbed. But gods above, it was painful. Her vacuum field ended in an instant; she had no concentration left to use on it. But mercifully, somehow, it wasn't needed anymore. The assassin finally, finally lost consciousness. The shock of her arm being blown up must have been enough on top of everything else.

Here, you are undercutting the pain. You are telling the reader that the explosion hurt, but not showing it. The burning like molten lava being dripped in ones bowels. The searing, white-hot pain that blurred her vision. You get the point. Show us how much pain your protagonist is in, don't just tell us.

Now for your questions:

1.) How is the pacing overall? Too fast, too slow, inconsistent, etc.

Headed in the right direction, but needs work.

2.) How weighty do the attacks feel? Do they portray a lot of impact, or do they feel toothless?

They feel a bit toothless, simply because you need to do more to show the consequences of the attacks instead of a large amount of cool attacks.

3.) How coherent is the action? Did you ever lose track of what was going on, or could you picture the fight well enough throughout?

It's pretty coherent. You just need to take a little bit more time adjusting for your protagonist having non-human anatomy.

4.) Did the fight end too quickly, or did it feel like it lasted long enough to sell the scene?

If anything, it went on a bit too long. As a reader, I would prefer a briefer but more dynamic fight.

5.) Should there be more background effects going on? Describing panic from any observers, possible police sirens in the distance, the way fire (inconsequentially) singes background objects, other environmental details not part of the fight itself.

Yes, but sparingly. Mostly, I want to see the effects of the attacks themselves. A little background detail would be good, sprinkled here or there. But not a whole condensed paragraph, unless you are using observation to explore the psychology of the characters.

I hope that helps, best of luck!

 

[Dawnathon]

No worries. You were very specific in your request for feedback, so I wanted to be sure to give it a look.

Thank you for taking the time to give feedback! It's definitely appreciated. I won't reply to every remark since some of them I don't have much to say besides "I agree with you and I'll try better next time." I'd just like to clear up a couple things and ask a few questions ^^

So you're at a clearly higher level than what I'm used to giving feedback on. So what I'm recommending, even if I don't always coat it in flowery language, is all more advanced stuff that mean that you are progressing really well in your writing.

I'm flattered by your comment here, and I'll confess that I am used to more "mature" writing as you later mentioned. This story is more of an attempt at a trashier webnovel approach to storytelling, though from what I've read in your feedback, it seems to have stagnated at an awkward middle ground rather than crossing over into full on pulp fiction. I left out stating my intentionality from the OP since I wanted to see people's opinions based on the writing alone without any external biases, because at the end of the day, the average reader is only going to see what's in the work itself, not my justifications for it on some forum post ^^;;

Would it be correct to say that the writing comes off as trying to be mature and serious while falling short? I feel like it comes off that way based on the response, though really it's trying to be over-the-top and evocative, while probably coming across too serious to actually take it that way.

First issue is paragraph and sentence construction. Again, it's wonderful to see someone who is comfortable writing paragraphs more than a sentence long. But, in a fight scene, you have the extra afforded room to play with your paragraphs and sentences so that the rhythm of the prose matches the tension in the scene. I'll edit an example below for you to see.

"The novae kept a stranded eye watching the tree, while she herself quietly slipped off the roof. Her path would never cross the killer's line of sight. Reaching into her own coat pocket, she withdrew a flintlock pistol. She took a deep breath ... then made her approach.

Complete silence was impossible even for her, but she had another idea in mind.

Letting one of her eyes creep its way towards a bush in a different direction, she lightly shook it like a lure. It was enough to mask her footsteps until she was just below them.

She stopped, taking a deep breath in."

Here, I've cut some verb tenses that were making the pace much slower. I group actions into smaller paragraphs as long as they are direct sequences of events. And I've created a few one-line paragraphs to draw emphasis to changes in pace. Again, this is a stalking/hunting/survival scene. Her mind should be choppy. Thus, the prose can be choppy. And that heightens the tension when done in a controlled way. My elipses are somewhat controversial (along with m-dashes which people now think is the exclusive right of AI nowadays). You don't have to use them. But, again, you get more license for weirdness in your storytelling tools when covering unusual ground in your story.

I see what you mean. It could be trimmed down quite a bit, without losing much substance.

You don't need all caps in mature writing. Let the dialogue itself carry the urgency. Instead of:

Do more with less like:

"Don't. Fucking. Move."

Three words, a small amount of unusual punctuation, and yet it carries weight, tension. For tension, less is usually more. Of course, you may not want hardened killer tone. You may want nervousness or something like that. Which can all be achieved in much the same way. The same goes with using a bold font later. Save bold font for computers speaking, or something like that. Let your dialogue itself hold the emotion and urgency.

Part of this, and a lot of the overly wordy parts of the chapter, are due to a lack of faith in the readers, I'll admit. I had written it out without all caps, but I was afraid it didn't stand out enough when the assassin later on repeats the same line mockingly. Would it have been better to simply leave it without caps, even if it means the repetition might be lost on the reader?

As a side note, the protagonist doesn't curse, but I do see where you're going with it. Maybe "Don't you dare move" would have been a good compromise between the two? The bold text was also to highlight a later repetition, but it may have been a Pyrrhic victory, and might have just been lost as it is.

Save sound effects for when you want to write the screenplay of the next Adam West Batman. Bop! Pow! Zing!

Part of this has to do with indicating a sudden, shocking, and slightly confusing action. In this case, the assassin being shot through the arm, bullet buried from her bullet to the bicep. It's supposed to give a moment of uncertainty to the reader after the assassin's arm "shot" to Kurai, making them think the novae might have been attacked first before realizing it's the assassin who was shot instead by the Chekhov's flintlock pistol. I do want to keep that moment of uncertainty, so is there any way you can think of that would give it without an onomatopoeia?

I have seen other webnovels use onomatopoeia quite frequently in their fight scenes, including one story that seemed to use it like dialogue ["Fwish fwish," went the arrow]. Is that a bad practice even then, or is it just how I used it here?

If anything, it went on a bit too long. As a reader, I would prefer a briefer but more dynamic fight.

Gotcha... I suppose it's word density, then? I was worried it was too short since in truth, there were only a few actual actions back and forth, but I can see it was getting long in the tooth with most of them while lacking impact for a lot of them.

Yes, but sparingly. Mostly, I want to see the effects of the attacks themselves. A little background detail would be good, sprinkled here or there. But not a whole condensed paragraph, unless you are using observation to explore the psychology of the characters.

I see! I could probably combine the two, having the background details be what sells certain attacks (like one character just barely ducking below a slash that cuts down a tree behind them, as an example).

I hope that helps, best of luck!

It very much does! Thank you again, and sorry for the delayed response as I contemplated some things.

 

[Ellie_in_Pink]

Would it be correct to say that the writing comes off as trying to be mature and serious while falling short?

It's more like ... you're still getting your sea-legs when it comes to fight scenes. There's not a problem with what you're trying to do, genre-wise. Fight scenes are just hard. And I can't read your mind, but it reads like you are treating it like you would a slower-paced sort of chapter. Fight is more like a dance, with noticeable changes in rhythm, a story in each action, a give and take. And it just takes a while to get the feel for making the prose match the action.

Would it have been better to simply leave it without caps, even if it means the repetition might be lost on the reader?

Better than having it in caps? Yes. Achieving the effect your seem to want? Not quite enough.

"STOP WHERE YOU ARE! Stay down! Put your hands up, or I'll shoot!"

This reads like a recording of a police arrest. Humans shouting off of a script because they don't want to get shot. Reality instead of cinematic realism. But because of that, it doesn't carry literary weight or urgency. It's also a mouthful, without much context.

You could use dialogue tags and description to help. Also, the middle sentence may be what's pushing it over into "too much" territory. Because, really, all three sentences have the exact same meaning. That being, "I have a gun pointed at you and I am willing to kill you."

"Stop where you are!. I shouted, my palms sweaty against the gun. "Put your hands up, or I'll shoot!"

This isn't necessarily what you want, but it shows what I mean. Adding a dialogue tag and some scene description of the character enhances the tension and creates variance in rhythm between two very similar spoken sentences.

I have seen other webnovels use onomatopoeia quite frequently in their fight scenes, including one story that seemed to use it like dialogue ["Fwish fwish," went the arrow]. Is that a bad practice even then, or is it just how I used it here?

If it worked, I wouldn't have a problem with it. So it's not about best practice. The reason I bring up Batman is because it is intentionally a silly show. Sound effects, for the most part, are silly. So they work for some purposes. Illustrated stories also have a bit more allowance because the art carries the gravitas of the scene. In a purely written medium, while trying to reserve tension, it simply works against you. It makes the reader pause or giggle, instead of feeling the urgency of a gunshot. So try a short, highly descriptive sentence, which gets its own paragraph. Like:

A crack tore through the air around me.

Gotcha... I suppose it's word density, then?

More like growing pains from still learning how to make the rhythm match the action. Also, you have a lot of attacks that amount to very little. Not every attack has to be successful, but it should accomplish some purpose in the piece. Whether that be hurting the opponent, breaking the scenery, failing spectacularly, giving the opponent the edge, etc. When the actions accomplish changes in the story and momentum, then they become interesting. When they feel like someone playing Mortal Kombat, trying to juggle an 8-hit combo, the action feels like it's just going on for far too long.

I see! I could probably combine the two, having the background details be what sells certain attacks (like one character just barely ducking below a slash that cuts down a tree behind them, as an example).

Exactly, you nailed that right on the head.

sorry for the delayed response as I contemplated some things.

No worries. At least for me, it takes me a hot minute to absorb feedback as well. Getting through the emotional part, testing to see if the points are valid, taking the time to try to implement it. It's good to take the time to think about it before replying.